Major Credit Score Discrepancy - Same Bureau

[Anonymous]

Been working on my credit, want to refinance my mortgage.

As a sign of my improved credit, in August, NFCU automatically upped my credit limit on my credit card and lowered my interest rate which they said was based on my credit score - I didn't even ask. I thought that was a sign that it was a good time to do some refinancing. I refinanced my auto loan through NFCU with no issue. Now I'm attempting to refinance my existing mortgage with them. Up until now they have been VERY - like, amost ridiculously - good to me.

Currently, CK is Showing a TransUnion score of 732 and Experian score of 734.
Equifax.com is showing 734
Chase is showing my Experian score as 739.
NFCU is showing my Equifax FICO score at 696 (the 40 point discrepancy here I know is likely timing, they only update it once a month and I recently went up significantly due to paying off more than 50% of a revolving credit card and dropping its usage below 30%)
All of my reports from all 3 bureaus are very consistent.

But, when I applied for my mortgage Refi, NFCU rejected my application and stated in the rejection letter that my score was only 642. When I called they told me they use TransUnion and that my credit score for a mortgage is "Not a FICO score" and uses different criteria. He was unable to explain any further and stated they could do a "hard check" on my credit instead - but I'm afraid if the issue is the criteria, and not the actual details, not only will I still not be approved, but now I'll have a hard check on my credit report and a lower score. Why is there almost a 100 point difference?

Additional note is I find it funny that they are rejecting me for a Refi when they approved me for my original mortgage 3 years ago with an even LOWER score than the one they reported. None of this makes any sense to me...

[iheartwings]

OP - Congrats on working progressing on your credit journey.

Unfortunately, the scores you're providing are VantageScores, which are credit scores, but not used in decision making for mortgages and most credit card products. CK provides TU and EQ VS3, and Chase provides EX VS3. These scores can be higher or lower than your FICO8 (and the umpteen other variations of FICO) scores. For example, my VS for all 3 bureaus are lower than my FICO8 scores.

I am not familiar with NFCU, but generally mortgage FICO scores are still used for mortgages and refinancing (Check this link to read about the EQ5, TU4, EX2). Companies also have their own internal scoring system (Chase has their own, called CARS, for example), and this may also be the case with NFCU. 

You can purchase your FICO scores from all 3 bureaus that include mortgage and auto scores, which you should do if considering refinancing. You may find that the scores are completely different from those that you have listed, and this may give you a starting point to fix your scores, if they are indeed lower than the VS that you presented.

Good luck! 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I've been searching and reading on this site since. They must be using TU04. I wish I had known that before applying. It stinks that there's no "free" way to check up on them.

I noticed the links to the mortgage scores/reports on that thread are all broken. Is there another thread with updated links, or can you provide any?

[iheartwings]

I've had a subscription to myFICO forever, well, maybe since 2017, which sometimes feels like forever. I know it sucks that you can't get your mortgage scores for free, but consider it an investment in getting yourself the best rate. 

You can buy single or all 3 for one time pull of your scores here: https://www.myfico.com/products/fico-score-credit-reports (Click on One-time reports under "Choose your plan"). 

[VALoanMaster]

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Why is there almost a 100 point difference?

Additional note is I find it funny that they are rejecting me for a Refi when they approved me for my original mortgage 3 years ago with an even LOWER score than the one they reported. None of this makes any sense to me...

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100 is pretty significant difference. Do you have any derogatory hits?

What type of loan are your refinancing, conventional, FHA or VA?

NFCU and pretty much every other lender increased their credit score requirements last year due to COVID and the push by the federal government for lenders to offer forbearance for anyone struggling with their mortgage. In fact, NFCU initially raise their minimum credit score requirement to 700 and they stopped offering FHA loans altogether.

Not every lender over reacted to the extent that NFCU did so you can always refi with someone else.

[Anonymous]

@VALoanMaster thank you for that information, I didn't realize the impact this had on mortgages, particularly NFCU. I will keep that in mind. I really wanted to stick with them because, like I said, up until now they've been VERY good to me. For example, my CC interest is 7.99% which is unheard of for a credit card, and when they lowered it to that, I hadn't even crossed the 700 mark in my any of my FICO or Vantage score yet. Also, at the time I got my original mortgage (and my previous mortgage to that) they were the only ones I applied to that would lend to me. Seems the situation may be reversed this time around, I guess. Though I will also note that applying through NFCU is also much easier as they have my history and I have a lot less to fill out on the forms and research of my own records than with anywhere else. I will wait for some changes to my report (see below) and give it one more go and if I get rejected again I will apply to other places. Only doing "soft" credit checks at this point so no impact to my score to keep applying. 

There's a long tale to my credit journey and how I went from very good credit (when I bought my first house, the real estate agent and loan officer were amazed at how high my credit score was for my age), to bad credit and now climbing my way back up. Long story short is medical bills. I'll leave it at that.

Good question on Duragatories. So, bit of a story to that. I have had many medical bills in collections over the years due to inability to pay. 3 particular (and high $$$) collections I had been unable to pay off and got duragatory marks. These are 4 and 5 year old accounts, however.  A month ago as of tomorrow, I paid all 3 of these off - 1 to the original creditor (a credit counselor recommended I do that whenever possible) and the other 2 via the collection agency. 2 weeks after paying, the 2 I paid to the collection agency were removed from my EX report, but they are still lingering on my TU and EQ reports and the one is still there on all 3 reports. Tomorrow I will file a dispute for any that are still on my reports. My understanding is due to their age, however, they shouldn't be having a large impact. I will again note, that these were on my file and were more recent when I got my original mortgage 3 years ago and I still got it (albeit at a high interest rate).

I did have a more recent "Major Derogatory" mark that was added to my report on 8/29. This was the result of a mixup. I told one collection agency I was going to pay an account on a certain date, and I paid a different account at a different agency instead. A couple days later, this "Major Derogatory" showed up. I'll also note that this was in the period after I got the better interest on my CC, after I refinanced my car, but before I applied for the refi the first time (that time showed a score of 629) - and further snuck in between the last time I checked my report and when I applied for the refi. If had seen it, I wouldn't have applied. Anyway, as soon as I saw it, I addressed that IMMEDIATELY, and it disappeared from all of my credit reports within days of paying.

So, I know the scores are different - is it possible they're looking at a different (older) version of my report to determine the score? Could my score go up if I just wait a little longer?

Also, after posting here, I went to annualcreditreport.com (which is now a free weekly credit report, at least until the pandemic is over) and downloaded my EQ and TU reports (the site glitched on me before getting to the EX report). MY CK reports clearly show my derogatory marks - and the three collections accounts I mentioned above are on all of the reports, but the ones I downloaded from annualcreditreport.com, which in general have a lot more detail than my CK reports, don't show any indication of deragotory marks.

The point I'm trying to get to is, anything that shows up on my CK report or other reports I have access to, I can dispute, I know the process. But what if there's something on one of these versions of the report I don't have any access to that shouldn't be on there - how the heck do I dispute those if I don't even know what's there?

now to @iheartwings - my current mortgage is actually a "Military Choice" Mortgage which is an NFCU only thing and has 0% down payment and no PMI requirement, extremely low closing costs, but carries a higher interest rate than VA or conventional (so short term win for me - I actually got a check BACK for overpayment of closing costs when I bought this house - but long term they get their money). I had also found it was easier to qualify for.

For my refi I'm trying to go conventional as the equity in my house has increased to the point that I can quality for conventional based on the percentage of equity I have now (part from paying off, part from home value rising) and I want the lowest interest rate possible. If I can get my score to the point where I qualify, I can even take a small amount of money out (to pay the remainder of my medical bills [that haven't yet hit my credit report] and credit card bills), yet still keep enough equity in the house and lower my payments significantly at the same time. When I talked to the loan officer, they confirmed I could get out the amount I wanted and still be able to go conventional.

They wouldn't give me more details on credit score, though. I'm pretty sure that in the past, even the 642 score they reported would have qualified me even for conventional (albeit at a higher interest rate). I don't know where the bar is at now and I wish I did.

I know VA requirements are typically less than conventional. So even though I have the equity, and don't NEED VA from that pesrpective, maybe I can go the VA route, I still have my VA benefit available ... and I just read on NFCUs website that they no longer require PMI even with their VA loans (they did for any equity < 20% when I got this one 3 years ago, and is a big reason why I chose this one, which now seems like a much crappier option) and the VA interest looks very close to conventional interest, so maybe I should try the VA route. I'm not sure on closing costs, there's typically a high fee for VA and I also know rolling closing costs in on the Military choice is easier than on the VA, too, so I'll have to look into that, and I don't know about taking out the equity that I wanted to do, either. I guess I'll be calling a loan officer again to discuss.

Also, though, even if I find something I qualify for with my current "mortgage" credit score of 642, I know the higher the number, the lower my interest, and if I don't get a low enough interest, then I've lost the entire point of refinancing to begin with... so I want that number as high as possible before I do the refi.

[Anonymous]

So, I had posted a reply... but for some reason it didn't appear. Maybe it took too long. It was pretty long, let me try to keep it short, I guess. 

@VALoanMaster thank you for the information. I hadn't realized the new COVID regulations had affected mortgages that way. I guess that is why it's harder to do this refi. I will wait for some stuff to clear on my report (see below) and then give it another try, if rejected again I'll look at some other lenders. Like I said, up until now, NFCU has been REALLY good to me and I'd like to stay with them. They have given me opportunities when no one else would, and they also have given me really good deals, too. It's also easier to apply with them since they have all my information. I will have to do a lot of research into my own records to fill out all the necessary forms for other lenders... 

Deragatory marks - good question. Yes. I had 3 collection accounts on my reports for a long time, with deragatory marks, they are 4-5 years old. Supposedly, these shouldn't affect my score much because of their age. That beind said, as of tomorrow, they will have all been paid off for a month. I paid 1 directly to the original creditor (as previously recommended to me by a credit counselor to do whenever possible) and 2 to the collection agencies. The two paid to the collection agencies disappeared from my EX report 2 weeks after I paid them. TU and EQ are still showing them. The other one is still on all 3.

Perhaps more importantly, I had a "Major Deragotory" added to one of my collections accounts on 8/29. This slipped in after I got my CC interest rate down (and limit up) and after I did my car refinancing, but before my first mortgage refi application, which showed a 629 score, partly due to this, I'm sure. This was due to a mixup. I promised one collection agency I would pay this account on a certain day, and I mistakenly paid a different account with a different agency instead. When payment didn't come, they added the mark. Once it got my attention, I took care of it with the collection agency IMMEDIATELY and it disappeared off of all three of my reports within days.

At this point in time, I do not have any other collections accounts on my credit report, other than the 3 mentioned above. If my reports don't show them all cleared tomorrow, I will start filing disputes. One thing to note: after posting here, I downloaded my TU and EQ reports (the site glitched on me before getting my EX report) from annualcreditreport.com. Though, in general, it had much more detail than my CK reports, it didn't seem to show the deragatory marks anywhere on it, where my CK report is clear.

One concern I have is, if my mortgage score is being based of off something I don't have access to, and it's wrong information - how could I dispute it? Anything I see on the multiple credit reports I've looked at I can dispute, but I can't dispute anything that I can't see. I wish the free reports I get were the same as the ones the bank have - they all advertise as being that. Only in here do I see all the different ones... 

My existing mortgage is an NFCU "Military Choice" mortgage, which is an NFCU only thing. It does have a lower score requirement (not sure exactly what the level is), no PMI, no down payment requirement, and very low closing costs. However, it does have higher interest. I'm trying to refinance to a conventional based on my current equity. The loan officer I talked to verified that my home value (subject to final approval) should be enough to qualify for conventional based on percent equity and I could even take a little cash out (for the remaining CC balances and medical bills). In general, it does have a higher requirements than the military choice, but seems almost ridiculous. I just looked at NFCUs website and I noticed they are now offering VA loans without PMI, which they didn't before, and they are lower interest than the Military Choice, and I still qualify for VA, so I may try the VA route on my next attempt, also.

[VALoanMaster]

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@Anonymous wrote:

So, I had posted a reply... but for some reason it didn't appear. Maybe it took too long. It was pretty long, let me try to keep it short, I guess. 

@VALoanMaster thank you for the information. I hadn't realized the new COVID regulations had affected mortgages that way. I guess that is why it's harder to do this refi. I will wait for some stuff to clear on my report (see below) and then give it another try, if rejected again I'll look at some other lenders. Like I said, up until now, NFCU has been REALLY good to me and I'd like to stay with them. They have given me opportunities when no one else would, and they also have given me really good deals, too. It's also easier to apply with them since they have all my information. I will have to do a lot of research into my own records to fill out all the necessary forms for other lenders... 

Deragatory marks - good question. Yes. I had 3 collection accounts on my reports for a long time, with deragatory marks, they are 4-5 years old. Supposedly, these shouldn't affect my score much because of their age. That beind said, as of tomorrow, they will have all been paid off for a month. I paid 1 directly to the original creditor (as previously recommended to me by a credit counselor to do whenever possible) and 2 to the collection agencies. The two paid to the collection agencies disappeared from my EX report 2 weeks after I paid them. TU and EQ are still showing them. The other one is still on all 3.

Perhaps more importantly, I had a "Major Deragotory" added to one of my collections accounts on 8/29. This slipped in after I got my CC interest rate down (and limit up) and after I did my car refinancing, but before my first mortgage refi application, which showed a 629 score, partly due to this, I'm sure. This was due to a mixup. I promised one collection agency I would pay this account on a certain day, and I mistakenly paid a different account with a different agency instead. When payment didn't come, they added the mark. Once it got my attention, I took care of it with the collection agency IMMEDIATELY and it disappeared off of all three of my reports within days.

At this point in time, I do not have any other collections accounts on my credit report, other than the 3 mentioned above. If my reports don't show them all cleared tomorrow, I will start filing disputes. One thing to note: after posting here, I downloaded my TU and EQ reports (the site glitched on me before getting my EX report) from annualcreditreport.com. Though, in general, it had much more detail than my CK reports, it didn't seem to show the deragatory marks anywhere on it, where my CK report is clear.

One concern I have is, if my mortgage score is being based of off something I don't have access to, and it's wrong information - how could I dispute it? Anything I see on the multiple credit reports I've looked at I can dispute, but I can't dispute anything that I can't see. I wish the free reports I get were the same as the ones the bank have - they all advertise as being that. Only in here do I see all the different ones... 

My existing mortgage is an NFCU "Military Choice" mortgage, which is an NFCU only thing. It does have a lower score requirement (not sure exactly what the level is), no PMI, no down payment requirement, and very low closing costs. However, it does have higher interest. I'm trying to refinance to a conventional based on my current equity. The loan officer I talked to verified that my home value (subject to final approval) should be enough to qualify for conventional based on percent equity and I could even take a little cash out (for the remaining CC balances and medical bills). In general, it does have a higher requirements than the military choice, but seems almost ridiculous. I just looked at NFCUs website and I noticed they are now offering VA loans without PMI, which they didn't before, and they are lower interest than the Military Choice, and I still qualify for VA, so I may try the VA route on my next attempt, also.

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My guess is the 3 collection accounts continued to report every month even though they're 4-5 years old. That would explain the lower scores.

You can pull your mortgage scores for a fee on My Fico.

VA is going to be your best option, it's easier to qualify for and the rates are generally better than conventional.

Also, VA has never had PMI but it does have a funding fee that is financed into the loan. VA waives the funding fee for Veterans with a service connected disability rating of 10% or more.

[HowDoesThisAllWork]

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@Anonymous wrote:

So, I had posted a reply... but for some reason it didn't appear. Maybe it took too long. It was pretty long, let me try to keep it short, I guess. 

@VALoanMaster thank you for the information. I hadn't realized the new COVID regulations had affected mortgages that way. I guess that is why it's harder to do this refi. I will wait for some stuff to clear on my report (see below) and then give it another try, if rejected again I'll look at some other lenders. Like I said, up until now, NFCU has been REALLY good to me and I'd like to stay with them. They have given me opportunities when no one else would, and they also have given me really good deals, too. It's also easier to apply with them since they have all my information. I will have to do a lot of research into my own records to fill out all the necessary forms for other lenders... 

Deragatory marks - good question. Yes. I had 3 collection accounts on my reports for a long time, with deragatory marks, they are 4-5 years old. Supposedly, these shouldn't affect my score much because of their age. That beind said, as of tomorrow, they will have all been paid off for a month. I paid 1 directly to the original creditor (as previously recommended to me by a credit counselor to do whenever possible) and 2 to the collection agencies. The two paid to the collection agencies disappeared from my EX report 2 weeks after I paid them. TU and EQ are still showing them. The other one is still on all 3.

[REPLY] [REPLY] [REPLY] A collections account will "segment" you into a dirty score card.  And, specifically, into the "Public Record" section.  These stay on your Credit Reports for seven years.  Roughly.  You can pay them (either to the Original Creditor or to the Collections Agency - whoever the legal owner of the debt is.....and that can sometimes be convoluted) with a so-called Pay for Delete.  But that is typically something that is negotiated.  Did you do that?  My guess is no....you did not.  Additionally, it sounds like the Collections Agency did you a solid by removing said account(s) for you.  Maybe they did it for all three CRAs (and not just Experian) and they have not 'disappeared' from Equifax and Transunion yet?  When did this happen?  It might be a timing thing.  As to the Collections with the Original Creditor, maybe you can call them and plead with them to do this?  Might we ask for the name of the Collection Agencies?  And for the name of the Original Creditor?  It might be possible - if you end up needing to do this - to start a "Goodwill Letter" campain...... just thinking outloud here (hopefully you do not need to do that...hopefully these three Collections accounts disappear for you).

Perhaps more importantly, I had a "Major Deragotory" added to one of my collections accounts on 8/29. This slipped in after I got my CC interest rate down (and limit up) and after I did my car refinancing, but before my first mortgage refi application, which showed a 629 score, partly due to this, I'm sure. This was due to a mixup. I promised one collection agency I would pay this account on a certain day, and I mistakenly paid a different account with a different agency instead. When payment didn't come, they added the mark. Once it got my attention, I took care of it with the collection agency IMMEDIATELY and it disappeared off of all three of my reports within days.

[REPLY] [REPLY] [REPLY] Okay...this is not a "Major Derogatory" - in the classic sense.  A 'Major Derogatory' is a 60-day delinquent or more.  The fact that the collections account disappeared from your three credit reports is a good thing.  There is no longer any evidence of this account or event! So-to-speak!

At this point in time, I do not have any other collections accounts on my credit report, other than the 3 mentioned above. If my reports don't show them all cleared tomorrow, I will start filing disputes. One thing to note: after posting here, I downloaded my TU and EQ reports (the site glitched on me before getting my EX report) from annualcreditreport.com. Though, in general, it had much more detail than my CK reports, it didn't seem to show the deragatory marks anywhere on it, where my CK report is clear.

[REPLY] [REPLY] [REPLY] PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do NOT file a dispute.  Many many many people misunderstand what a dispute is.  You file a dispute when something is reported incorrectly.  Such as an account that does not belong to you.  Or when dates are updated incorrectly.  Keep in mind that Financial Institutions do not have to remove Collections accounts from your Credit Record.  In fact, there are many that just plain do not.  Filing a dispute because a Collections Account was not removed will not do you any good.  And it might do some harm.  Give this a little bit of time to take place.  Please please please do not file a dispute.

One concern I have is, if my mortgage score is being based of off something I don't have access to, and it's wrong information - how could I dispute it? Anything I see on the multiple credit reports I've looked at I can dispute, but I can't dispute anything that I can't see. I wish the free reports I get were the same as the ones the bank have - they all advertise as being that. Only in here do I see all the different ones... 

My existing mortgage is an NFCU "Military Choice" mortgage, which is an NFCU only thing. It does have a lower score requirement (not sure exactly what the level is), no PMI, no down payment requirement, and very low closing costs. However, it does have higher interest. I'm trying to refinance to a conventional based on my current equity. The loan officer I talked to verified that my home value (subject to final approval) should be enough to qualify for conventional based on percent equity and I could even take a little cash out (for the remaining CC balances and medical bills). In general, it does have a higher requirements than the military choice, but seems almost ridiculous. I just looked at NFCUs website and I noticed they are now offering VA loans without PMI, which they didn't before, and they are lower interest than the Military Choice, and I still qualify for VA, so I may try the VA route on my next attempt, also.

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[Anonymous]

I guess I should be clear in my wording - they did not all "disappear", a few did "disappear" with no record they ever existed (usually the ones paid to the original creditor), but most appear now as "paid in full". For ones that had deragatory marks (except the 3 above), the marks have disappeared, including the one that was "major derogatory". So, there is still evidence there was collections, but not evidence of the derogatory event.... at least from the details in the reports I can see. No, I did not specifically negotiate a "pay-for-delete" but I have talked directly to people at both when paying.

IDK what the norm is, I guess, only what I see on my own reports. For the record, I've paid a lot of collections accounts over the last year or so and it's definitely helped my credit score - perhaps that's my issue is they helped my VantageScore a lot but maybe not my FICO mortgage risk score as much? Maybe anything that was ever in collections still impacts that even if they are paid? Maybe they still see all the deragotories? I know more about credit scores than almost every person I know around me, but this forum has definitely opened up my eyes to aspects I didn't know about or consider. Even the credit counselor I had didn't mention some of this stuff.

If > 60 days is "major derogatory" then technically, almost all of the stuff I had in collections could have been marked that, including that account a long time ago. I mostly ignored collections (and my credit score, frankly) for a while simply because I knew I didn't have the money. So, maybe they chose not to... just so they could use it as a tool if they felt they needed to do so later then hit me with it when they thought the time was right? IDK. One other possibility is that ignoring them was the right choice... perhaps they couldn't mark it until I actually answered the phone or reached out to them in some way.

Regardless, I do want to pay them. I know if I completely ignored them for 7 years, as far as my credit report is concerned, they'd just eventually disappear. I never intended to leave them go forever, though, it's just that living and taking care of my family was more important then paying bill collectors and I made them wait until I actually had the money to pay them off before I started engaging. I kept my home paid for and the lights on and food on the table. Medical bills could wait. The hospital wasn't going to stop seeing us just because we didn't pay all of our copays on time - they were still getting 80%-90% of the bill from my insurance.

On my soapbox for a minute... It's one thing that really sucks about this country, if you have major medical problems you have to worry not just about your health and your family's health, and taking physical care of yourselves, but also all the freaking bills and how you're going to pay for them, and deal with the bad credit, etc...  while you're struggling just to keep it together... gah... ok, back off of soapbox.

I've had quite a credit journey. I remember when I bought my first house and how amazed my realtor and loan officer were at how high my credit score was for my age at the time, but just sprinkle in a few expensive medical issues that keep happening year after year after year and it'll ruin that score...

Most of my collections (including some past derogatories) were with Americollect, the one I paid direct to the creditor was with Americollect (I have multiple different "creditors" [read: hospitals, labs, clinics, etc.] that use them). The other two are with Northern Service Bureau. There were others. They all seem to behave the same. Frankly, I have accounts with Americollect that haven't yet hit my credit report. I think they try to play "nice" to entice people to pay up to prevent worse stuff from happening. Frankly, if the deragatory remarks were never removed for 7 years even after I paid... well, then I would seriously consider never paying and just letting them time out... I don't want to mention any original "creditors" by name as that may get too close to home and I want to keep anonymity as much as possible on here.