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net pay, pay stubs, and retirement contributions

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: net pay, pay stubs, and retirement contributions


@JVille wrote:
As stated above it’s your Gross that matters. As a Lender & Underwriter I examine paystubs for items that the borrower may have failed to disclose such as 401K loans, garnishments, differences in base pay, overtime, bonus payouts.

I do not consider Voluntary 401K deductions or net pay.

Many thanks!

Message 11 of 16
iced
Valued Contributor

Re: net pay, pay stubs, and retirement contributions


@Anonymous wrote:

@iced wrote:

@Dalmus wrote:

@Anonymous wrote:

I've never once heard of a mortgage lender caring about net income numbers.  DTI is all that matters, and DTI is always calculated based on gross income numbers.  

 

Remember that DTgI always makes assumptions based on your net and gross deductions from gI to nI.


When I bought my house 10 years ago I was nowhere near as credit educated as I am now, and assumed DTI was based on actual take home pay, because... Why should you consider money you'll never see as money that you have towards a mortgage?  I remember calculating what I thought I could afford ($150K or under), and then being amazed that the bank pre-approved me for $230K.  (Thankfully, I knew I could never handle that sort of payment and purchased below *MY* number).

 

A lot of people got themselves in trouble by buying way more house than they could really afford


This is the key right here. Even if the bank ends up looking at your gross, you should be looking at your net and only spending what you can comfortably afford with that.


Hi Iced.  Certainly it is true that people should separately consider how much they can actually afford -- not simply take out the biggest loan anyone will give them.

 

But if you glance back at my initial post, you'll see that, if I were to do what I usually do in the first quarter of a year, which is to funnel most of my paycheck into my 401k, then my paystubs from Q1 would give the (false) impression that my monthly net income was much MUCH smaller than it typically is.

 

And thus, if lenders were to consider the net pay on my paystub as part of what they used to judge the loan size, they might offer me a much smaller loan than what I actually want (and can indeed afford).

 

That's why I posted this question.  It ends up mattering a lot -- it's not a question that can be solved by me just only buying what I can afford (which of course I will be sure to do).  That ends up not being the key in my case.


I am very much aware of that, but because saving is important I would rather afford less than more. In fact, I’m in your same situation - at the start of each year, my gross pay is around $13000 per month while my net is just under $3000. It means when I ran the numbers for myself, I can afford a mortgage that’s just slightly more than one year’s salary. I’d love to be able to afford a $500,000 mortgage, but the simple fact is I can either have a nicer home or I can save for the future.

 

You're of course free to go for more house, but be aware you are giving something up for it. As someone said, the bank sees retirement as optional...you should decide if you do as well.

Message 12 of 16
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: net pay, pay stubs, and retirement contributions

Hey Iced.  It sounds like we are talking at cross purposes.


To recap:  In the first quarter of the year, my paystubs give a very misleading picture of what my net income is annually, because the net income on those Q1 paystubs is much MUCH lower than it would be if you looked at paystubs from the rest of the year.  The example I gave in my initial post is that a paystub from July would show a $2000 net pay, whereas a paystub from  February would likely show around $300.

 

I call that misleading because indeed I have far more than $300 per pay period to cover housing, utilities, food, entertainment, etc.  (As it turns out I always have a big cash reserve -- it's very big in early January and by early April it's a good bit smaller, though still far bigger than most people have.  Then it gradually builds back up to its huge level by December.)

 

If mortgage lenders looked at the net pay (as listed on the paystubs they request) as a partial guage for how big of a home loan you could afford, then the highly misleading $300 would result in a highly restricted loan size, one far smaller than I can comfortably afford.  This is why I was asking the question I originally asked, and which in your first response you seemed to not have fully understood.  (You basically told me I needed to not go for the biggest loan I could, but instead consider a smaller loan based on what I could comfortably afford.)

 

Fortunately (based on what Jville says) it sounds like no lenders use the net pay on the requested paystubs as even a partial consideration in assessing loan size.  And thus the $300 net-pay figure won't have any effect on what they offer, leaving me the freedom to choose a realistic home purchase price that best accords with my realistic available pay (after retirement, after taxes, etc.).

 

PS.  It sounds that like me you too may push more into your retirement in Q1 than in other quarters.  You mention that your monthly net is 3k in Q1, whereas (it sounds like) your monthly net in (say) July is higher.  You then conclude that the 3k becomes the constrainer for realistic loan size.  I think that only follows if we assume that you (or someone like us) has a small cash reserve.  If we assume, however, that the person has sufficient cash in Jan 1 to ride out the lower monthly income from Q1, then what really matters (in planning for a realistic ceiling on the biggest house one should buy) is one's annual net pay.  Given that your monthly gross is 13k, my guess is that your average monthly net is (say) 6k -- even after assuming some big outlays for retirement and taxes. 

 

Regardless, like you I am a huge proponent of saving.  One of the biggest talking points for me on the forum is trying to address the common advice to make sure that you are only spending what you bring in.  My view (and yours) is that actually people need to make sure they are spending far FAR less than they bring in, so that they can push the difference into various kinds of savings: 401k, Roth, rainy day emergency funds, save-for-my-down-payment funds, etc.

Message 13 of 16
iced
Valued Contributor

Re: net pay, pay stubs, and retirement contributions


@Anonymous wrote:

Hey Iced.  It sounds like we are talking at cross purposes.


To recap:  In the first quarter of the year, my paystubs give a very misleading picture of what my net income is annually, because the net income on those Q1 paystubs is much MUCH lower than it would be if you looked at paystubs from the rest of the year.  The example I gave in my initial post is that a paystub from July would show a $2000 net pay, whereas a paystub from  February would likely show around $300.

 

I call that misleading because indeed I have far more than $300 per pay period to cover housing, utilities, food, entertainment, etc.  (As it turns out I always have a big cash reserve -- it's very big in early January and by early April it's a good bit smaller, though still far bigger than most people have.  Then it gradually builds back up to its huge level by December.)

 

If mortgage lenders looked at the net pay (as listed on the paystubs they request) as a partial guage for how big of a home loan you could afford, then the highly misleading $300 would result in a highly restricted loan size, one far smaller than I can comfortably afford.  This is why I was asking the question I originally asked, and which in your first response you seemed to not have fully understood.  (You basically told me I needed to not go for the biggest loan I could, but instead consider a smaller loan based on what I could comfortably afford.)

 

Fortunately (based on what Jville says) it sounds like no lenders use the net pay on the requested paystubs as even a partial consideration in assessing loan size.  And thus the $300 net-pay figure won't have any effect on what they offer, leaving me the freedom to choose a realistic home purchase price that best accords with my realistic available pay (after retirement, after taxes, etc.).

 

PS.  It sounds that like me you too may push more into your retirement in Q1 than in other quarters.  You mention that your monthly net is 3k in Q1, whereas (it sounds like) your monthly net in (say) July is higher.  You then conclude that the 3k becomes the constrainer for realistic loan size.  I think that only follows if we assume that you (or someone like us) has a small cash reserve.  If we assume, however, that the person has sufficient cash in Jan 1 to ride out the lower monthly income from Q1, then what really matters (in planning for a realistic ceiling on the biggest house one should buy) is one's annual net pay.  Given that your monthly gross is 13k, my guess is that your average monthly net is (say) 6k -- even after assuming some big outlays for retirement and taxes. 

 

Regardless, like you I am a huge proponent of saving.  One of the biggest talking points for me on the forum is trying to address the common advice to make sure that you are only spending what you bring in.  My view (and yours) is that actually people need to make sure they are spending far FAR less than they bring in, so that they can push the difference into various kinds of savings: 401k, Roth, rainy day emergency funds, save-for-my-down-payment funds, etc.


It sounds like the misconnect I had is that you allow your net to raise after maxing out contributions to 401k and you want to base a home purchase off that higher amount. Once I cap 401k, the funds I would have deposited in it get diverted to after-tax accounts such as personal brokerages and/or Roth IRA (on years I qualify). The only times when my net truly increases is when I cap Social Security withholding or months where bonuses are paid. The logic is if I can survive on what I make in January, there's no reason to reduce savings to purchase a home later. 

 

Thus, I consider my net to be $3000/month year-round. I also do not use household income to calculate mortgage affordability. As you stated, this does result in a max loan that's far less than what I could afford, but it would mean giving up one of my savings channels, which is something I'm unwilling to do at present (a strategy you and I sound like we both advocate).

 

I will confess my wife doesn't always agree with that philosophy and it can be frustrating to see just how little house we are able to purchase as a result, but I argue it's a necessary step to be able to retire at some point before we're both dead.

Message 14 of 16
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: net pay, pay stubs, and retirement contributions

As per the initial post I make a steady contribution of $500 every paycheck throughout the year.   That gets me all my matching money, money I'd lose if I fully funded all vehicles by April 1.  It's just that, in addition to that steady $500 throughout the year, I funnel a lot more into my vehicles in Q1.  Thus resulting in the tiny net pay figure for paychecks in Q1 ($300) mentioned in that first post -- which I think a homeless guy may be able to survive on, but not anybody else.  :-)

 

I fund the legal annual limit for my tax sheltered retirement funds (including my Roth IRA).  In 2017 that was $30,500.  The excess goes into my cash fund, saving toward my downpayment on the upcoming home.

Message 15 of 16
JVille
Valued Contributor

Re: net pay, pay stubs, and retirement contributions

Congratulations on maxing our your 401K but Lenders DO NOT care about your Net Pay, they consider those contributions voluntary. They carefully examine your paystubs to verify what your actual gross pay is vs what you say it is and deductions that reflect obligations (child support, garnishments, loans from 401K or employer) that you have neglected to mention.

Interesting that in my Lending career I dealt with two extremes in borrowers (lots in-between too) the ones who wanted to borrow much much more than I would ever qualify them for AND the ones who would never consider borrowing anything near what they actually qualified for....

Then there were the people who expected me to tell them what they could afford 😳. Everyone needs to start with their Net Pay and sit down and do a budget based on your family’s actual bills and requirements. It’s different for everyone!
Message 16 of 16
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