@Minimalist wrote:Not surprisingly this type of opinion isn't popular in a place where 10+ cards is the norm, so I understand the crowd I'm playing to here. I used to be amongst them when a medical event happened and insurance was no help, and subsequently had to file for BK. That was eight years ago and was close to having to do it again this time for the same reasons. But I decided I'd rather not have another one on my CR for another 10 years and just work on the credit debt and collections and worry about the medical debt down the road. A mentality not exactly conducive to churning for SUBs.
Oh, you're not alone, @Minimalist. I've known quite a few other members over the past few years that either practice or strive towards that minimalism. I haven't always had as many cards as I do now, and I also don't plan to always keep so many. For most of my 40+ year credit life, I've had only about 6-12 open accounts counting store cards and those lesser used accounts. (But I agree that it's been a very long time since I just had two or three in-total, and I'll probably never cut back to that extent again.) There's a part of me that is attracted to simplicity and minimalism, but cutting back for me means 5-10 cards most likely. I had two threads in the Smorgasbord forum a couple of years ago: Simplicity: ONE Card, and the ULTIMATE Two-Card Combo. I want to maintain some balance with my accounts in terms of age, credit limits, lender diversity, network diversity and rewards so those all come into play with my decisions.
In this posting about our "Top Five Cards," I wrote:
My list isn't about just optimizing rewards but taking into consideration factors such as lender diversity, account age, credit limits, perks, and payment network diversity. With BofA Premium Rewards Elite and Preferred Rewards Platinum Honors, my baseline earnings would be 2.625% on anything with no caps. While four out of five of these cards have significant annual fees, there are enough credits and/or perks to easily offset those fees in my estimation.
*Chase Sapphire Reserve Visa Infinite: $141.4K (all Chase personal limits)
*Bank of America Premium Rewards Elite Visa Infinite: $99.9K (all BofA personal limits)
*AMEX Marriott Bonvoy Brilliant: $75K (all AMEX personal limits)
*Discover IT: $52K (oldest card at 30+ years and network diversity)
*CITI AAdvantage Executive World Elite Mastercard: $49.5K (If CITI allowed it, would move my $47K Costco limit for $96.5K limit.)
That would give me (5) cards with $417.8K in total credit limits (or higher); all 4 processing networks; oldest card 30 years; 4 premium metal cards with exceptional perks; Average CL $83,560 (or higher); lender diversity with 5 major national lenders. I doubt I would do it to this extent but it's very clean. I like it. 
I just wouldn't want to trash the lender diversity I've worked so hard to achieve and the potential back-ups as my needs change. Plus the loss of some rewards such as the CSR+CFU and PRE+CCR.
@Minimalist wrote:Which, like I said, is fine for anyone else. I don't judge it (I don't understand it, but there's not much to understand).
The more I think about it, the more I think 1 or 2 cards may be appropriate, quality over quantity.
Maybe a good points card (Amex Gold, CSP, etc.) alongside a good cash back card would be more than enough to fulfill my needs. I primarily use my debit card for everyday purchases as it is. It's nice to utilize credit when needed, not so nice to rely on it.
Minimalism is fine, @Minimalist and I don't judge it either. 
And I do understand the desire for simplicity, quality over quantity, and other factors, especially since you acknowledged the "rebuilding" mindset. I've also done some rebuilding.
I do think you don't understand when you say there's not much to understand. In message 25, you said:
... The one card I have now is a tool of rebuilding, while also trying to rebuild cash reserves and sinking/emergency funds (a higher priority all things considered!) FICO is a tool, not a status symbol, or a measure of bragging rights. Nor is it the be all, end all of personal finance. It's the participation trophy of the financial world. A measure of the ability to have instant gratification and maximized spending power, as opposed to being financially stable ...
Many of us have BOTH: financial stability alongside the high FICO, high credit limits, and the perks those offer. It's the best of both worlds. It's using my financial stability and responsibility to leverage more value back from my lenders in rewards and perks. The high FICO is a tool indeed. Those of us who post about our high FICOs aren't using it for bragging rights as much as we are helping others understand what is possible and how to attain it, if they desire. Yes, my high credit limits would allow "instant gratification" but I have the self-discipline to not spend beyond my means. I pay in full monthly and run very low utilization. Do I rely on credit?? Absolutely NOT! I use my credit cards like you use your debit card. I just have the benefit of not having the charges come immediately out of my account, not having my bank balances compromised if my debit card number is compromised, having the fraud protections afforded to credit cards over debit cards, and earning rewards well in excess of what many debit cards will earn. I could cancel all my cards and pay cash without skipping a beat financially. I just choose not to do so. I'm not tempted to overspend and my cards are there for my convenience. I agree that "relying" routinely on credit is not a good way to manage a credit file, and I've counseled some of our members struggling with their credit related to that very subject.
By the way, my rebuild was not from irresponsible use of credit or frivolous spending. It was related to keeping my family afloat during an extended but unexpected midlife career transition. Having gone through some hard times and rebuilding, I value my FICO and want to maintain it as the tool that is for one part of my financial freedom.
From my links, you will see that we are somewhat alike in considering the value-added on the continuum between simplicity (few cards) and complexity (many cards). Our members choose many positions between 1-100+ cards but that is often driven by motivations far beyond relying on those credit lines.
Many of us have BOTH: financial stability alongside the high FICO, high credit limits, and the perks those offer. It's the best of both worlds. 
It's using my financial stability and responsibility to leverage more value back from my lenders in rewards and perks. The high FICO is a tool indeed.
Which, again, is a tool that works, for you. I choose not to base my self-worth off of how many cards I have or even if I have any at all. After this next bankruptcy (thanks to medical debt after COVID to the tune of $80k) I'll be learning to live off cash and living below my means while on a budget. Something that having 20 or more credit cards and having to monitor usage, fraud and spending on those cards is not conducive to. If/when I do decide to get back into credit, it'll likely be with one/two cards only for the forseeable future.
Yes, my high credit limits would allow "instant gratification" but I have the self-discipline to not spend beyond my means. I pay in full monthly and run very low utilization. Do I rely on credit?? Absolutely NOT!
If you've seen the totals on accumulated credit card debt lately (1.17 Trillion, with a T, as of the 3rd Quarter 2024), you find the great majority don't. As well as DO rely on credit to live beyond their means, and are in debt up to their eyeballs. Same mentality as an alcoholic or a cocaine addict, once it starts, it's real hard to stop. And these numbers are likely just folks with 3-4 credit cards at a time, imagine what 20-100 will do in their hands.
I use my credit cards like you use your debit card. I just have the benefit of not having the charges come immediately out of my account, not having my bank balances compromised if my debit card number is compromised, having the fraud protections afforded to credit cards over debit cards, and earning rewards well in excess of what many debit cards will earn.
100 percent wrong. The same VISA/MC networks on debit cards offer the same fraud protections credit cards do, it's based off the network, not the means. If your bank can't do that, find another one. Also, I use 99.9 percent of all debit card purchases on Apple Pay, which offers even greater protections against fraud since it changes the 16-digit card number for each transaction. How many times has my debit card been compromised? ZERO!
By the way, my rebuild was not from irresponsible use of credit or frivolous spending. It was related to keeping my family afloat during an extended but unexpected midlife career transition. Having gone through some hard times and rebuilding, I value my FICO and want to maintain it as the tool that is for one part of my financial freedom.
Imagine the financial freedom being credit card debt free offers. Have a look at the rebuilding and bankruptcy forums on these very boards, and you'll see the number of people who are the exact opposite of what you are. (You are in a commendable place, I give you credit for that, but also an Outlier.) I also place a certain value on my FICO score, although not nearly as high as most around here, clearly. I find it a better goal to have $100k in liquid assets/savings than the same amount in available credit. It would just do more for me, and I would sleep better at night knowing that's there if something goes bad again, and I won't have to rely on credit to fix it. Finances over FICO and all that.
@Aim_High wrote:
@Minimalist wrote:Which, like I said, is fine for anyone else. I don't judge it (I don't understand it, but there's not much to understand).
The more I think about it, the more I think 1 or 2 cards may be appropriate, quality over quantity.
Maybe a good points card (Amex Gold, CSP, etc.) alongside a good cash back card would be more than enough to fulfill my needs. I primarily use my debit card for everyday purchases as it is. It's nice to utilize credit when needed, not so nice to rely on it.
Minimalism is fine, @Minimalist and I don't judge it either.
I do think you don't understand when you say there's not much to understand. In message 25, you said:
... The one card I have now is a tool of rebuilding, while also trying to rebuild cash reserves and sinking/emergency funds (a higher priority all things considered!) FICO is a tool, not a status symbol, or a measure of bragging rights. Nor is it the be all, end all of personal finance. It's the participation trophy of the financial world. A measure of the ability to have instant gratification and maximized spending power, as opposed to being financially stable ...
Many of us have BOTH: financial stability alongside the high FICO, high credit limits, and the perks those offer. It's the best of both worlds.
It would all depend on the level of importance placed on those perks, I've never had any real use for them in the past, beyond cash back, since points and miles usually require a higher level of spending than I was or would be willing to adhere to. But that's an individual choice.
Those of us who post about our high FICOs aren't using it for bragging rights as much as we are helping others understand what is possible and how to attain it, if they desire. Yes, my high credit limits would allow "instant gratification" but I have the self-discipline to not spend beyond my means. I pay in full monthly and run very low utilization. Do I rely on credit?? Absolutely NOT!
A look at the recent news of the levels of credit card debt accumulated in the 3rd Quarter 2024 ($1.17 trillion, with a T!) would put you in a pretty respectable category, and outside the norm of what most credit users behavior is like. Therein lies the issue, it's the same mentality with something like firearms, there's people who use them who have no business being anywhere near them. Holds true for credit cards as well. Alcoholics, cocaine addicts, credit addicts, all the same category. Not true of everyone, but you'll find the mentality more the norm than the exception, hence the aforementioned debt totals in the trillions.
I use my credit cards like you use your debit card. I just have the benefit of not having the charges come immediately out of my account, not having my bank balances compromised if my debit card number is compromised, having the fraud protections afforded to credit cards over debit cards, and earning rewards well in excess of what many debit cards will earn.
Sorry, 100 percent wrong. Debit cards are on the same networks (VISA/MC) that credit cards are, and offer the same level of protections from fraudulent transactions that credit cards do. Some banks go about enforcing those protections differently, the banks I've dealt with in the past have always been on top of any fraudulent transactions on my account, when 100 percent of the time it was me making those transactions. Also, it doesn't hurt that I use 100 percent of my transactions on my debit card through Apple Pay, which offers even more significant levels of fraud protection since the 16-digit card number is completely changed for every transaction. Meaning, if someone were to try to steal that information, it would be to an account that doesn't exist. I have had my debit card compromised exactly zero times under those circumstances.
I could cancel all my cards and pay cash without skipping a beat financially. I just choose not to do so. I'm not tempted to overspend and my cards are there for my convenience. I agree that "relying" routinely on credit is not a good way to manage a credit file, and I've counseled some of our members struggling with their credit related to that very subject.
By the way, my rebuild was not from irresponsible use of credit or frivolous spending. It was related to keeping my family afloat during an extended but unexpected midlife career transition. Having gone through some hard times and rebuilding, I value my FICO and want to maintain it as the tool that is for one part of my financial freedom.
I suppose I do value my FICO score, although not nearly at the levels of some around here, clearly. Once my bankruptcy is up in a few months (thanks to Medical Bills to the tune of $80k+ during and after COVID and the ensuing debt that accompanied it) I'll probably spend more time learning to live off cash, maintaining a budget, and living below my means, which in my view is extremely hard to do with 20+ credit card accounts that I'd have to micromanage on a constant basis. Not to mention having ADHD and Generalized Anxiety makes impulsiveness a bit of an issue, not exactly a great fit for me. And it's a bigger goal of mine to achieve $100k in savings/cash reserves than worrying about anywhere near that in credit lines. Finances over FICO and all that.
From my links, you will see that we are somewhat alike in considering the value-added on the continuum between simplicity (few cards) and complexity (many cards). Our members choose many positions between 1-100+ cards but that is often driven by motivations far beyond relying on those credit lines.
It is hard for me to understand the reasoning, just like I'm sure it's hard for someone to understand my reasoning toward needing so little. It's just so much easier to get in a world of trouble financially with so many cards that are used constantly, than with 1 or 2 that would be used sparingly in my case.
@Minimalist wrote:
@Aim_High wrote:... Yes, my high credit limits would allow "instant gratification" but I have the self-discipline to not spend beyond my means. I pay in full monthly and run very low utilization. Do I rely on credit?? Absolutely NOT!A look at the recent news of the levels of credit card debt accumulated in the 3rd Quarter 2024 ($1.17 trillion, with a T!) would put you in a pretty respectable category, and outside the norm of what most credit users behavior is like. Therein lies the issue, it's the same mentality with something like firearms, there's people who use them who have no business being anywhere near them. Holds true for credit cards as well. Alcoholics, cocaine addicts, credit addicts, all the same category. Not true of everyone, but you'll find the mentality more the norm than the exception, hence the aforementioned debt totals in the trillions.
I could cancel all my cards and pay cash without skipping a beat financially. I just choose not to do so. I'm not tempted to overspend and my cards are there for my convenience. I agree that "relying" routinely on credit is not a good way to manage a credit file, and I've counseled some of our members struggling with their credit related to that very subject ... Having gone through some hard times and rebuilding, I value my FICO and want to maintain it as the tool that is for one part of my financial freedom.
I suppose I do value my FICO score, although not nearly at the levels of some around here, clearly. Once my bankruptcy is up in a few months (thanks to Medical Bills to the tune of $80k+ during and after COVID and the ensuing debt that accompanied it) I'll probably spend more time learning to live off cash, maintaining a budget, and living below my means, which in my view is extremely hard to do with 20+ credit card accounts that I'd have to micromanage on a constant basis. Not to mention having ADHD and Generalized Anxiety makes impulsiveness a bit of an issue, not exactly a great fit for me. And it's a bigger goal of mine to achieve $100k in savings/cash reserves than worrying about anywhere near that in credit lines. Finances over FICO and all that ... It's just so much easier to get in a world of trouble financially with so many cards that are used constantly, than with 1 or 2 that would be used sparingly in my case.
Thank you, @Minimalist. I think you'd find, though, that most of our members with many cards have stable finances, don't rely on the credit lines, enjoy exploring different lenders programs, enjoy optimizing rewards, and maintain a number of cards that they feel comfortable managing. At some point, most of us will reach a point where we tire of managing x number of cards and decide to close a few, or decide that a card just isn't a good fit for us after trying it out. We have some members who have been tempted to over-use credit and have gotten themselves into a bind, but the community is always glad to step up to the plate to help them confront the dilemma. So yes, as you pointed out, consumer debt can be a real problem for many and they are better off just not having access to as much credit.
The micro-managing comment is interesting since I saw you mention it on another thread also. That very topic is something we've discussed over the years multiple times on My FICO. Everyone has their own take on the subject. For someone who only has a couple of cards, twenty, thirty, or forty can seem amazingly complicated. It doesn't have to be. For one, many of us have multiple cards with a single lender. Mobile apps and managing accounts via the webz have made it easy to track and pay accounts, and having multiple accounts with AMEX or Chase means I can pay each one quickly on the same log-in. Auto pay is handy tool. I have it enabled on all my accounts, but I use it for a back-up to pay the minimum. I also typically pay my accounts off early as I run up charges instead of waiting until statement cut. With all the mobile apps for banking and credit set up in a folder on my phone, I can quickly cycle through them until I catch up on my bills. Also, all of my cards don't get spend every month. I choose which cards I am using for a few weeks or months at a time. Sometimes, I use a card for a few "keep-alive" charges and then return it to the sock drawer. All-in-all, it's not as complicated as it appears. We have some members who track literally dozens of cards. One of them used to tell us about how he tracked usage and payments in a journal, using each card monthly. For him, it was a pleasurable hobby of sorts. I would never want to do that, but I don't mind managing a dozen or two dozen cards. Meanwhile, your tolerance is lower, but it's all okay as it's all personal preference and circumstances.
@Minimalist wrote:
@Aim_High wrote:I use my credit cards like you use your debit card. I just have the benefit of ... , not having my bank balances compromised if my debit card number is compromised, having the fraud protections afforded to credit cards over debit cards
Sorry, 100 percent wrong. Debit cards are on the same networks (VISA/MC) that credit cards are, and offer the same level of protections from fraudulent transactions that credit cards do. Some banks go about enforcing those protections differently, the banks I've dealt with in the past have always been on top of any fraudulent transactions on my account, when 100 percent of the time it was me making those transactions.
Nope, sorry, but you are the one who is mistaken, @Minimalist. I must correct this since our forums are read by many "lurkers" who might be misled otherwise if inaccuracies are not corrected.
Debit cards (do) have some limited protections under the Electronic Funds Transfer Act (EFTA). However, the protections afforded to credit cards under the Fair Credit Billing Act (FCBA) are superior. The fact that your debit card has a VS/MC logo just shows that is the processing network used for the transaction. It has nothing to do with providing equivalent consumer protections.
When detected and reported sooner, debit and credit card liability protection is similar or equivalent. However the range of liability can quickly rise with debit cards and can become essentially unlimited. With credit cards, most lenders offer "Zero Liability Protection" and also have diligent fraud detection teams at work. And federal law limits a consumer's responsibility on credit card fraud to $50. Period, with no reporting time limit. With a debit card fraud, you must act within just 2 days of unauthorized charges to guarantee your liability is only $50.
Over my decades with credit, more of my fraud was detected and blocked by my lenders before I even knew about it, and they quickly contacted me to confirm or deny the charges. Credit card issuers have much more of a vested interest to detect and limit fraud than any debit card issuer, since the losses are coming out of THEIR pocket. It's not the same with financial institutions when there is debit card fraud. If your bank or credit union has been easy to work with, that is great but those protections are not federally-guaranteed.
The superior protections afforded to credit cards is one of several reasons why I *NEVER* use a debit card for anything other than to get cash from an ATM. And with most of my financial institutions, I've specifically requested an ATM-ONLY card to limit my exposure.
See the chart below from >this link< at Experian.
If you want to read more, here are some other articles from reliable sources:
Credit Card vs Debit Card: Which One is Safer Online? (Nerdwallet)
Victim of Fraud? Protections are different for Credit, Debit cards. (USA Today)
Are Debit Cards Protected From Fraud? (US News and World Report)
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau: Credit Cards
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau: Debit Cards
Credit Card versus Debit Card: Know the Difference (Michigan.gov/Consumer Protection)