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6% overall utilization --> 7 point bump

Super Contributor

Re: 6% overall utilization.

If aggregate utilization changed, buy definition individual card utilization changed.  It's not like something crucial was being hidden here.  That's why we ask questions to try and get to the bottom of the reason(s) for a score change.  SJ never stated that an individual card utilization didn't change or didn't cross a threshold.  He did however clearly state that the score change he experienced came before the 1st of the month, ruling out age of accounts factors, yet the need to pry about age of accounts factors possibly increasing was still an issue for whatever reason.

Message 31 of 72
Super Contributor

Re: 6% overall utilization.


@BrutalBodyShots wrote:

If aggregate utilization changed, buy definition individual card utilization changed.  It's not like something crucial was being hidden here.  That's why we ask questions to try and get to the bottom of the reason(s) for a score change.  SJ never stated that an individual card utilization didn't change or didn't cross a threshold.  He did however clearly state that the score change he experienced came before the 1st of the month, ruling out age of accounts factors, yet the need to pry about age of accounts factors possibly increasing was still an issue for whatever reason.


Check post 4

Check post 10

And to be clear, I now know that the day of the month don’t matter in this case.

 

Because we now know that 6% Aggregate is not a Thing, that individual card utilization going from 25% to 1% is in fact, and likely always has been, the Thing. 

High Bal Jan 2009 $116k on $146k limits 80% Util.
Oct 2014 $46k on $127k 36% util EQ 722 TU 727 EX 727
April 2018 $18k on $344k 5% util EQ 806 TU 810 EX 812

Delta Reserve and CSP Jan 2018, no more 5/24 worries... unless new Chase Marriott/SPG replacement is enticing...meh, turns out not. [unless a 100k points SPG Luxury Upgrade appears... well lookie here...]
Message 32 of 72
Valued Contributor

Re: 6% overall utilization.


@SouthJamaica wrote:

@Thomas_Thumb wrote:

@SouthJamaica wrote:


The reason I was able to get clean data -- which is a challenge in my profile -- is that I just subscribed to a new Experian product which gives me daily updates of the report including updates of 4 scores: FICO 8, FICO 2, and an Auto and Bankcard score.  So it's clean data, but only applicable to EX. Several days later on my MyFICO dashboard there was a 6 point increase in TU FICO 8.  So it's possible that it was related, but impossible for me to have any degree of certainty about that one.

 

It didn't occur during the changeover of the month; it occurred earlier.


Please report before/after on all scores received. It is more insightful as various models behave differently. I find it useful to look at Shifts in Classic score compared to Auto and Bankcard. If all three shift the same way more than 5 points, that's a tell sign that some factor fundamental to the algorithm has crossed a threshold.

 

Because # cards with balances, aggregate utilization and individual card utilization (typically highest card UT%) all affect score, it is helpful to mention # cards reporting (say 6 of 20 for example) and highest card UT%. SJ, is all that information available to you on these reports?

 


Great questions @Thomas_Thumb I always learn from you.

 

1. Yes all that information is available to me from these reports.

 2. There was no change in number of accounts with balances (stayed the same at 12 of 30).

 3.  There was no instance of a >30% account dropping to <9%.

 4.  It did not occur on a change of month, it occurred between the 23rd and the 24th, and there was no change to age of anything. 

 5. The only change was that one account reporting a 25% balance dropped to a 1% balance. There were a total of 8 accounts reporting >9% balances on the 23rd; there were a total of 7 accounts reporting >9% balances on the 24th.

 6. The changes in the Classic, Auto, and Bankcard scores seem to support your hypothesis that some factor fundamental to the algorithm may have crossed a threshold:

 

Classic 8 +7

FICO 2  +-0 (EX Fico 98 model)

Auto 8 +9

Bankcard 8 +8

 


I don't think we can rule out individual card utilization as potentially influencing score. Was 25% your highest card UT and if so, what was the next highest that remained?

 

BTW - thanks for adding the other scores. Interesting to see the lack of movement in EX Fico 98. This particular model was insensitive to an increase in # cards reporting and higher utilization but, EX Fico 04 (score 3) reacted strongly. unfortunately I can't say too much about Fico 8 & Fico 9 because those models ignore my high spend AU card.

 

In a couple weeks I will be allowing a personal card to report a balance in the 20% to 25% range - up from 2%. I don't plan on getting a 3B report but, I'll get free scores on EX Fico 9, EX Fico 8, TU Fico 8 and EQ BCE Fico 8 as well as EX , TU and EQ VS3.

 

Fico Model NameBeforeAfter
# accts with balances45
# Inquiries00
Aggregate UT% w/AU1.15.4
AU card UT %2.616.4
EX Classic Fico 9850850
EX Classic Fico 08850850
EX Classic Fico 04830809
EX Classic Fico 98839842
EX Auto Fico 09887886
EX Auto Fico 08897895
EX Auto Fico 98858861
EX Bankcard Fico 09879878
EX Bankcard Fico 08900900
EX Bankcard Fico 98864867

 

 

 

Fico 8: .......EQ 850 TU 850 EX 850
Fico 9: .......EQ 850 TU 850 EX 850
Fico 4 .....:. EQ 809 TU 823 EX 830 EX Fico 98: 842
VS 3.0:...... EQ 835 TU 835 EX 835
Fico 8 BC:. EQ 892 TU 900 EX 900
CBIS: ........EQ LN Auto 940 EQ LN Home 870 TU Auto 902 TU Home 950
Message 33 of 72
Super Contributor

Re: 6% overall utilization.


@Thomas_Thumb wrote:

@SouthJamaica wrote:

@Thomas_Thumb wrote:

@SouthJamaica wrote:


The reason I was able to get clean data -- which is a challenge in my profile -- is that I just subscribed to a new Experian product which gives me daily updates of the report including updates of 4 scores: FICO 8, FICO 2, and an Auto and Bankcard score.  So it's clean data, but only applicable to EX. Several days later on my MyFICO dashboard there was a 6 point increase in TU FICO 8.  So it's possible that it was related, but impossible for me to have any degree of certainty about that one.

 

It didn't occur during the changeover of the month; it occurred earlier.


Please report before/after on all scores received. It is more insightful as various models behave differently. I find it useful to look at Shifts in Classic score compared to Auto and Bankcard. If all three shift the same way more than 5 points, that's a tell sign that some factor fundamental to the algorithm has crossed a threshold.

 

Because # cards with balances, aggregate utilization and individual card utilization (typically highest card UT%) all affect score, it is helpful to mention # cards reporting (say 6 of 20 for example) and highest card UT%. SJ, is all that information available to you on these reports?

 


Great questions @Thomas_Thumb I always learn from you.

 

1. Yes all that information is available to me from these reports.

 2. There was no change in number of accounts with balances (stayed the same at 12 of 30).

 3.  There was no instance of a >30% account dropping to <9%.

 4.  It did not occur on a change of month, it occurred between the 23rd and the 24th, and there was no change to age of anything. 

 5. The only change was that one account reporting a 25% balance dropped to a 1% balance. There were a total of 8 accounts reporting >9% balances on the 23rd; there were a total of 7 accounts reporting >9% balances on the 24th.

 6. The changes in the Classic, Auto, and Bankcard scores seem to support your hypothesis that some factor fundamental to the algorithm may have crossed a threshold:

 

Classic 8 +7

FICO 2  +-0

Auto 8 +9

Bankcard 8 +8

 


I don't think we can rule out individual card utilization as potentially influencing score. Was 25% your highest card UT and if so, what was the next highest that remained?

 

BTW - thanks for adding the other scores. Interesting to see the lack of movement in EX Fico 98. This particular model was insensitive to an increase in # cards reporting and higher utilization but, EX Fico 04 (score 3) reacted strongly. unfortunately I can't say too much about Fico 8 & Fico 9 because those models ignore my high spend AU card.

 

In a couple weeks I will be allowing a personal card to report a balance in the 20% to 25% range - up from 2%. I don't plan on getting a 3B report but, I'll get free scores on EX Fico 9, EX Fico 8, TU Fico 8 and EQ BCE Fico 8 as well as EX , TU and EQ VS3.

 

Fico Model NameBeforeAfter
# accts with balances45
# Inquiries00
Aggregate UT% w/AU1.15.4
AU card UT %2.616.4
EX Classic Fico 9850850
EX Classic Fico 08850850
EX Classic Fico 04830809
EX Classic Fico 98839842
EX Auto Fico 09887886
EX Auto Fico 08897895
EX Auto Fico 98858861
EX Bankcard Fico 09879878
EX Bankcard Fico 08900900
EX Bankcard Fico 98864867

 

 

 


No it wasn't the highest. The highest was 28% on both reports.

 

I don't think the score change had anything to do with the change in individual utilization.


FICO8 EQ 755 TU 776 EX 746 Total revolving limits 643900 (533900 reporting)
Message 34 of 72
Super Contributor

Re: 6% overall utilization.


@NRB525 wrote:

Because we now know that 6% Aggregate is not a Thing, that individual card utilization going from 25% to 1% is in fact, and likely always has been, the Thing. 


My understanding has always been that 8.9% utilization on an individual card is a profile-specific threshold.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I believe plenty of people have stated that it is a threshold where many others have crossed it plenty of times and reported no score change at all.

 

I'm very aware of your Post 10, as that's where you ignored SJ saying that the change came before the 1st of the month, but you continued to pry about age of accounts factors.  In your most recent post here, you backtrack and say that you know it's a non-factor.  I guess I figured you would have drawn that conclusion back at Post 10.

Message 35 of 72
Super Contributor

Re: 6% overall utilization.


@BrutalBodyShots wrote:

@NRB525 wrote:

Because we now know that 6% Aggregate is not a Thing, that individual card utilization going from 25% to 1% is in fact, and likely always has been, the Thing. 


My understanding has always been that 8.9% utilization on an individual card is a profile-specific threshold.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I believe plenty of people have stated that it is a threshold where many others have crossed it plenty of times and reported no score change at all.

 

I'm very aware of your Post 10, as that's where you ignored SJ saying that the change came before the 1st of the month, but you continued to pry about age of accounts factors.  In your most recent post here, you backtrack and say that you know it's a non-factor.  I guess I figured you would have drawn that conclusion back at Post 10.


In my profile individual utilization changes in the realm under 29% have no effect on FICO 8.


FICO8 EQ 755 TU 776 EX 746 Total revolving limits 643900 (533900 reporting)
Message 36 of 72
Super Contributor

Re: 6% overall utilization.


@SouthJamaica wrote:


In my profile individual utilization changes in the realm under 29% have no effect on FICO 8.


So then, it would definitely point toward another factor such as aggregate utilization, the purpose of your post.  Is there a chance that where at one time individual card utilization below 28.9% didn't matter on your profile perhaps now it does?  I can't really think of any reasons why that would change outside of possibly scorecard (re)assignment, but it's something to think about.  Would it be possible for you to take your individual card back up across 8.9% (but below 28.9%) and see if there's any score movement? 

Message 37 of 72
Super Contributor

Re: 6% overall utilization.


@BrutalBodyShots wrote:

@SouthJamaica wrote:


In my profile individual utilization changes in the realm under 29% have no effect on FICO 8.


So then, it would definitely point toward another factor such as aggregate utilization, the purpose of your post.  Is there a chance that where at one time individual card utilization below 28.9% didn't matter on your profile perhaps now it does?  I can't really think of any reasons why that would change outside of possibly scorecard (re)assignment, but it's something to think about.  Would it be possible for you to take your individual card back up across 8.9% (but below 28.9%) and see if there's any score movement? 


That particular account was not a big deal in the context of my profile. There are a bunch of other accounts with similar percentage utilization.

 


FICO8 EQ 755 TU 776 EX 746 Total revolving limits 643900 (533900 reporting)
Message 38 of 72
Super Contributor

Re: 6% overall utilization.


@SouthJamaica wrote:

@BrutalBodyShots wrote:

@NRB525 wrote:

Because we now know that 6% Aggregate is not a Thing, that individual card utilization going from 25% to 1% is in fact, and likely always has been, the Thing. 


My understanding has always been that 8.9% utilization on an individual card is a profile-specific threshold.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I believe plenty of people have stated that it is a threshold where many others have crossed it plenty of times and reported no score change at all.

 

I'm very aware of your Post 10, as that's where you ignored SJ saying that the change came before the 1st of the month, but you continued to pry about age of accounts factors.  In your most recent post here, you backtrack and say that you know it's a non-factor.  I guess I figured you would have drawn that conclusion back at Post 10.


In my profile individual utilization changes in the realm under 29% have no effect on FICO 8.


BBS, you are being selectively blind. Both post 4 and post 10 are asking first for the list of individual card utilization changes. The reference to timing is just casting a wide net for any sort of change reasons.

SJ, are you tracking all your individual card changes on a direct monitoring service such as MF? That's quite a statement that nothing under 29% on any single card affects your FICO 8.

 

Here is a recent sequence for my cards. The $451 change is taking a card over 50%. EX lost 21 points.  Even with that, a few days later paying down another card from 19% to 8% increases EX by 5 points, getting some of those back even though a card just went over 50%. I see this sort of movement all month long. I have a hard time believing anyone is not affected by individual card utilization changes more than half the time that those card balances change significantly. Going from high 20's to 1% is a significant change on one card.

 

2018 11 Scores Sample 2.JPG

High Bal Jan 2009 $116k on $146k limits 80% Util.
Oct 2014 $46k on $127k 36% util EQ 722 TU 727 EX 727
April 2018 $18k on $344k 5% util EQ 806 TU 810 EX 812

Delta Reserve and CSP Jan 2018, no more 5/24 worries... unless new Chase Marriott/SPG replacement is enticing...meh, turns out not. [unless a 100k points SPG Luxury Upgrade appears... well lookie here...]
Message 39 of 72
Super Contributor

Re: 6% overall utilization.


@NRB525 wrote:


SJ, are you tracking all your individual card changes on a direct monitoring service ....?

Yes I am.

FICO8 EQ 755 TU 776 EX 746 Total revolving limits 643900 (533900 reporting)
Message 40 of 72