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AAoA Data Points on a thin/clean file

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AAoA Data Points on a thin/clean file

Just wanted to add some data points for others interested in how AAoA affects FICO score.  This morning my EX FICO 8 went up 27 points from 734 to 761.  No change in utilization, inquiries, number of accounts, anything except I crossed the threshold for AAoA being 4 years (AoOA = 14 years 2 mo, closed AU card). My non-AU AAoA also went from 1y11mo to 2 years, which I'm not sure matters. I'll lose some of those points when my AMEX starts reporting but it was neat to see how positively AAoA affected my score.  Some other data points: in March my Discover IT reported (my first non-AU revolver) which dropped my AAoA from 4y2mo to 3y7mo (util 5% to 4% so didn't change much, went from 2 nearly 2 yo inquiries to 3 inq)... this resulted in net score increase of 25 points from 720 to 745.  I will add my score change when my AMEX reports but I have a feeling it will go down at least temporarily because it will push my AAoA to below 4 years again, my utilization is 2% so it can't be improved much, but I will be going from 4 open accounts to 5 (including an AU) and 7 -> 8 total open & closed accounts which Experian indicates is some sort of threshold. Feel free to share your own score changes with changes in AAoA in this thread!

 

Fico8 1/20:
Fico8 8/20:
AU:
18 REPLIES 18
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Super Contributor

Re: AAoA Data Points on a thin/clean file

@ChemE_Bear You’re AAOA had nothing to do with it. You just experienced scorecard reassignment on version 8 from a young profile to a aged profile. AoOA=2 years. Your authorized user account is being ignored by version 8.

 

Read the Scoring Primer linked at the top of my signature. Congratulations!

 

Edit I screwed up, read the rest of the thread! Threshold is 3 years not 2.

For a collection of our current FICO scoring wisdom, updated as we learn, read the following. Watch the revision dates on the bottom of the first 8 posts as they are regularly updated: Link to Scoring Primer.

RIP:







Updated June 2020, unless otherwise noted. I took an HP on EX, will reflect on next update.

(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? Severity and recency? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts, both open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (aged/nonaged), AOYRA-Age of Youngest Revolving Account (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/aged/new account, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just detail any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AOYRA and whether you have a loan on record.

For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment, please.
Message 2 of 19
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Re: AAoA Data Points on a thin/clean file

You went from a clean/thin/young/new account scorecard to a clean/thin/aged/new account scorecard, if you are in a thin card. 

For a collection of our current FICO scoring wisdom, updated as we learn, read the following. Watch the revision dates on the bottom of the first 8 posts as they are regularly updated: Link to Scoring Primer.

RIP:







Updated June 2020, unless otherwise noted. I took an HP on EX, will reflect on next update.

(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? Severity and recency? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts, both open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (aged/nonaged), AOYRA-Age of Youngest Revolving Account (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/aged/new account, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just detail any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AOYRA and whether you have a loan on record.

For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment, please.
Message 3 of 19
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Re: AAoA Data Points on a thin/clean file

I think I understand everything but your comment except that AoOA = 2 years? My oldest non-AU account is ~3 years. I've read the scoring primer.

Fico8 1/20:
Fico8 8/20:
AU:
Message 4 of 19
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Super Contributor

Re: AAoA Data Points on a thin/clean file


@ChemE_Bear wrote:

I think I understand everything but your comment except that AoOA = 2 years? My oldest non-AU account is ~3 years. I've read the scoring primer.


@ChemE_Bear I apologise, it was very late and I was very tired. When I read that you said your average age without the authorised user card was 2 years, I thought you were saying your oldest account without the AU was two years!

 

Which I was wrong about that anyway, that's the threshold for EX2, the threshold for version 8 is 3 years, as you state your oldest account is, without the AU. Did it just turn 3 years? Because if so, that was scorecard reassignment. If not, then you need to compare reports because it was not average age. Average age never awards that many points at one threshold. 

But it sounds perfectly like scorecard assignment from your oldest account turning 3 years old, so that would seem like your authorised user account is ignored by the anti-abuse algorithm. Have you ever tested it to see whether it's counting in version 8?

 

Sorry, I post a lot at night when I'm tired and can't sleep because I'm in pain. But when did that account turn 3 years old?

For a collection of our current FICO scoring wisdom, updated as we learn, read the following. Watch the revision dates on the bottom of the first 8 posts as they are regularly updated: Link to Scoring Primer.

RIP:







Updated June 2020, unless otherwise noted. I took an HP on EX, will reflect on next update.

(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? Severity and recency? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts, both open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (aged/nonaged), AOYRA-Age of Youngest Revolving Account (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/aged/new account, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just detail any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AOYRA and whether you have a loan on record.

For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment, please.
Message 5 of 19
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Re: AAoA Data Points on a thin/clean file

@ChemE_Bear And that’s awesome you’ve read the Scoring Primer, so you understand everything! May I suggest you reread post one starting at Scorecard Basics, because I just updated it and added some information that really helps you to understand scorecards and how they work. Let me know what you think!

For a collection of our current FICO scoring wisdom, updated as we learn, read the following. Watch the revision dates on the bottom of the first 8 posts as they are regularly updated: Link to Scoring Primer.

RIP:







Updated June 2020, unless otherwise noted. I took an HP on EX, will reflect on next update.

(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? Severity and recency? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts, both open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (aged/nonaged), AOYRA-Age of Youngest Revolving Account (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/aged/new account, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just detail any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AOYRA and whether you have a loan on record.

For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment, please.
Message 6 of 19
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Re: AAoA Data Points on a thin/clean file

 


@Birdman7 wrote:

@ChemE_Bear wrote:

I think I understand everything but your comment except that AoOA = 2 years? My oldest non-AU account is ~3 years. I've read the scoring primer.


@ChemE_Bear I apologise, it was very late and I was very tired. When I read that you said your average age without the authorised user card was 2 years, I thought you were saying your oldest account without the AU was two years!

 

Which I was wrong about that anyway, that's the threshold for EX2, the threshold for version 8 is 3 years, as you state your oldest account is, without the AU. Did it just turn 3 years? Because if so, that was scorecard reassignment. If not, then you need to compare reports because it was not average age. Average age never awards that many points at one threshold. 

But it sounds perfectly like scorecard assignment from your oldest account turning 3 years old, so that would seem like your authorised user account is ignored by the anti-abuse algorithm. Have you ever tested it to see whether it's counting in version 8?

 

Sorry, I post a lot at night when I'm tired and can't sleep because I'm in pain. But when did that account turn 3 years old?

 


Yes, my oldest account (student loan) just turned 3 years as of this month so that must be it.  Thanks for the information! I haven't tested my open AU account to see if it is being disregarded but due to the fact that Experian includes the closed AU account on my credit report for AAoA and AoOA but disregards it under "FICO Score 8 Ingredients" I'm assuming it is not being counted for FICO8.

 


@Birdman7 wrote:

@ChemE_Bear wrote:

I think I understand everything but your comment except that AoOA = 2 years? My oldest non-AU account is ~3 years. I've read the scoring primer.


@ChemE_Bear And that’s awesome you’ve read the Scoring Primer, so you understand everything! May I suggest you reread post one starting at Scorecard Basics, because I just updated it and added some information that really helps you to understand scorecards and how they work. Let me know what you think!


I will check it out again - haha I think from this thread its obvious I did NOT in fact understand everything.  Thank you for your patient responses!

Fico8 1/20:
Fico8 8/20:
AU:
Message 7 of 19
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Re: AAoA Data Points on a thin/clean file


@ChemE_Bear wrote:

 


@Birdman7 wrote:

@ChemE_Bear wrote:

I think I understand everything but your comment except that AoOA = 2 years? My oldest non-AU account is ~3 years. I've read the scoring primer.


@ChemE_Bear I apologise, it was very late and I was very tired. When I read that you said your average age without the authorised user card was 2 years, I thought you were saying your oldest account without the AU was two years!

 

Which I was wrong about that anyway, that's the threshold for EX2, the threshold for version 8 is 3 years, as you state your oldest account is, without the AU. Did it just turn 3 years? Because if so, that was scorecard reassignment. If not, then you need to compare reports because it was not average age. Average age never awards that many points at one threshold. 

But it sounds perfectly like scorecard assignment from your oldest account turning 3 years old, so that would seem like your authorised user account is ignored by the anti-abuse algorithm. Have you ever tested it to see whether it's counting in version 8?

 

Sorry, I post a lot at night when I'm tired and can't sleep because I'm in pain. But when did that account turn 3 years old?

 


Yes, my oldest account (student loan) just turned 3 years as of this month so that must be it.  Thanks for the information! I haven't tested my open AU account to see if it is being disregarded but due to the fact that Experian includes the closed AU account on my credit report for AAoA and AoOA but disregards it under "FICO Score 8 Ingredients" I'm assuming it is not being counted for FICO8.

 


@Birdman7 wrote:

@ChemE_Bear wrote:

I think I understand everything but your comment except that AoOA = 2 years? My oldest non-AU account is ~3 years. I've read the scoring primer.


@ChemE_Bear And that’s awesome you’ve read the Scoring Primer, so you understand everything! May I suggest you reread post one starting at Scorecard Basics, because I just updated it and added some information that really helps you to understand scorecards and how they work. Let me know what you think!


I will check it out again - haha I think from this thread its obvious I did NOT in fact understand everything.  Thank you for your patient responses!


@ChemE_Bear that is totally awesome congratulations on your promotion to an aged profile! Your penalties will now be less severe, but so will your awards, but your score will be more stable. You're now an old fogey in fico 8 eyes, lol.

 

See your oldest account is a loan? What's your oldest revolver, if I may ask?

 

I can already tell you the AU account is not counting on version 8 and 9 as a result of the scorecard reassignment, so you can skip the test! But it is helping you on the mortgage scores.

 

You cannot rely on any of the calculations made by a CMS frontend. They make those calculations from your credit report and do not necessarily do them in the same way the algorithm does. That was one of the things I'm thinking about adding in a section in the Primer, actually.

 

However you can rely on the data and it is correct that the account is on your report, but version 8 and 9 are ignoring it for calculations for your score. As a matter of fact, Experian shows utilisations in two places, one with and one without the authorised user account utilization. 

My pleasure, let me know what you think after you read the updated section and if you have any questions. 

For a collection of our current FICO scoring wisdom, updated as we learn, read the following. Watch the revision dates on the bottom of the first 8 posts as they are regularly updated: Link to Scoring Primer.

RIP:







Updated June 2020, unless otherwise noted. I took an HP on EX, will reflect on next update.

(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? Severity and recency? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts, both open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (aged/nonaged), AOYRA-Age of Youngest Revolving Account (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/aged/new account, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just detail any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AOYRA and whether you have a loan on record.

For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment, please.
Message 8 of 19
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Re: AAoA Data Points on a thin/clean file



@ChemE_Bear that is totally awesome congratulations on your promotion to an aged profile! Your penalties will now be less severe, but so will your awards, but your score will be more stable. You're now an old fogey in fico 8 eyes, lol.

 

See your oldest account is a loan? What's your oldest revolver, if I may ask?

 

I can already tell you the AU account is not counting on version 8 and 9 as a result of the scorecard reassignment, so you can skip the test! But it is helping you on the mortgage scores.

 

You cannot rely on any of the calculations made by a CMS frontend. They make those calculations from your credit report and do not necessarily do them in the same way the algorithm does. That was one of the things I'm thinking about adding in a section in the Primer, actually.

 

However you can rely on the data and it is correct that the account is on your report, but version 8 and 9 are ignoring it for calculations for your score. As a matter of fact, Experian shows utilisations in two places, one with and one without the authorised user account utilization. 

My pleasure, let me know what you think after you read the updated section and if you have any questions. 


Yes, my oldest account is a loan.  Oldest individual revolver is 5 months (6 months if they consider an account opened on 2/21 as a Feb 1 open date). My non-AU accounts are:

 

OPEN: 

-Student Loan opened August 2017

-Student Loan opened August 2018

-Discover IT opened February 2020

[AMEX BCP not reporting yet opened July 2020]

 

CLOSED:

-Auto Loan opened September 2018, closed June 2020

 

While I have you here could you answer these questions (I apologize if this is answered in the primer):

Will going from a thin to thick score card (clean/aged/new accounts) result in an increase or decrease? 

Do AU cards count towards number of accounts?

What is the threshold for going from thin to thick? 

Are there scoring thresholds for AoORA and AAoRA?

With AU I have 7 open + closed accounts.  Without AU I have 5 open + closed accounts but one is where my auto loan was transferred from one lender to another, do the 2 close auto loans count as 1?

I am waiting until December (6 months from my AMEX app) to app for my third card so I can practice AZEO.  Is that what I should be doing or does my relatively low number of inquiries mean I can/should app before then? My inquiries are EX: 4 (2 in last 6 months), EQ: 0, TU: 1.  2 of the HP on EX and the 1 on TU fall off next month.  

Fico8 1/20:
Fico8 8/20:
AU:
Message 9 of 19
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Re: AAoA Data Points on a thin/clean file


@ChemE_Bear wrote:


@ChemE_Bear that is totally awesome congratulations on your promotion to an aged profile! Your penalties will now be less severe, but so will your awards, but your score will be more stable. You're now an old fogey in fico 8 eyes, lol.

 

See your oldest account is a loan? What's your oldest revolver, if I may ask?

 

I can already tell you the AU account is not counting on version 8 and 9 as a result of the scorecard reassignment, so you can skip the test! But it is helping you on the mortgage scores.

 

You cannot rely on any of the calculations made by a CMS frontend. They make those calculations from your credit report and do not necessarily do them in the same way the algorithm does. That was one of the things I'm thinking about adding in a section in the Primer, actually.

 

However you can rely on the data and it is correct that the account is on your report, but version 8 and 9 are ignoring it for calculations for your score. As a matter of fact, Experian shows utilisations in two places, one with and one without the authorised user account utilization. 

My pleasure, let me know what you think after you read the updated section and if you have any questions. 


Yes, my oldest account is a loan.  Oldest individual revolver is 5 months (6 months if they consider an account opened on 2/21 as a Feb 1 open date). My non-AU accounts are:

 

OPEN: 

-Student Loan opened August 2017

-Student Loan opened August 2018

-Discover IT opened February 2020

[AMEX BCP not reporting yet opened July 2020]

 

CLOSED:

-Auto Loan opened September 2018, closed June 2020

 

While I have you here could you answer these questions (I apologize if this is answered in the primer):

Will going from a thin to thick score card (clean/aged/new accounts) result in an increase or decrease? 

Do AU cards count towards number of accounts?

What is the threshold for going from thin to thick? 

Are there scoring thresholds for AoORA and AAoRA?

With AU I have 7 open + closed accounts.  Without AU I have 5 open + closed accounts but one is where my auto loan was transferred from one lender to another, do the 2 close auto loans count as 1?

I am waiting until December (6 months from my AMEX app) to app for my third card so I can practice AZEO.  Is that what I should be doing or does my relatively low number of inquiries mean I can/should app before then? My inquiries are EX: 4 (2 in last 6 months), EQ: 0, TU: 1.  2 of the HP on EX and the 1 on TU fall off next month.  


@ChemE_BearI'm gonna say that you're in a C6 scorecard whereas you were in a C8 scorecard according to the graphic in the Primer. That's where your points came from. 

It's hard to say whether going from a thin to a thick scorecard would result in an increase or a decrease because the algorithms weigh the scoring factors differently. Thick scorecards have reduced penalties but also reduced awards, so it depends on the shape of your profile whether you would go up or down. (A loan at 9% or less is a bonus; an inquiry is a penalty. ) It's definitely preferable to be in a thick scorecard in my opinion as your score is more stable and penalties are not as severe.

 

An AU account will always count towards the number of accounts (and everything else) in the mortgage scores, but for version 8 and 9, it depends on whether they are flagged by the anti-abuse algorithm. There is a test explained in the Primer telling you how to test whether or not they are counting for 8 and 9.


We do not know the exact threshold for going from thin to thick, but would sure love to find out, so I would sure love for you to follow this closely and relay your data points! Nor do we know whether it is revolvers only or all accounts, but I think it's all accounts. It's also not necessarily the same across versions. It may be different for EX2, for '04 mortgage scores and then for version 8 and 9. AoOA line changed. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Yes there are thresholds for AoORA! As a matter of fact, people for years have been and are still currently mistakingly attributing those thresholds and gains  to AoOA!! (AoOA is a segmentation factor, not a scoring factor.)

 

As a result, of people not even realising this is a scoring factor nor looking for it, we don't know where the thresholds are, but I've got a good lead that 2, 4, 6, and 10 years might be significant. 


As for AAoRA, I believe it's also a scoring factor no one has been watching for and again its been mistakenly written off to AAoA or other reasons cuz no one realizes its there and a scoring factor! Now, where are the thresholds? Again, we don't know for these reasons, but we need people watching for them so we can learn.


One thing about credit scoring, it has traditionally been primarily focused on revolvers. Just like everyone thought the age of youngest account segmentation factor included loans, until I discovered and others confirmed it does not.

If the 2 closed auto loans have separate tradelines on your credit report, they count as 2 separate tradelines/accounts. With that said, the AU accounts are not counting on your profile, so version 8 & 9 are seeing you as thin with only 5 accounts. 

You do not have to have 3 revolvers to practice AZEO, but its most effective with 5 or more, across all versions, imho.

As for my opinion on what you should do, give me a couple minutes to review your information again. Gives you something to read in the meantime anyway 😉.

For a collection of our current FICO scoring wisdom, updated as we learn, read the following. Watch the revision dates on the bottom of the first 8 posts as they are regularly updated: Link to Scoring Primer.

RIP:







Updated June 2020, unless otherwise noted. I took an HP on EX, will reflect on next update.

(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? Severity and recency? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts, both open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (aged/nonaged), AOYRA-Age of Youngest Revolving Account (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/aged/new account, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just detail any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AOYRA and whether you have a loan on record.

For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment, please.
Message 10 of 19
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