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Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs

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Frequent Contributor

Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs

@Birdman7   Additional EQ 9 DP -  NFCU reported off cycle last month I believe on the 22nd which caught me with a balance at 68.5% on my NAVY card.  I just checked and they updated their EQ FICO 9 a couple days ago showing me down 7 pts. at that until %.  3 open revolvers, one reporting <3%, Navy card reporting 68.5% and third card reporting 0%.  

Message 61 of 73
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Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs


@Dumbee wrote:

https://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Understanding-FICO-Scoring/Can-I-get-an-800-credit-score-before-my-... 

 

@Subexistence posted some data on scoring with SSL/AZEO, pretty much fully optimized



The scores coming out of the 6 month gates should be listed around there, but I'd estimate mid-high 700

 

I think the major hits at that point are inquiries and new account penalty

 

Any AAOA under 1 year is scored the same, or so I've read around


My oldest is 10mo and avg is 5mo and I'm sitting around 73x on EQ and 740+ on TU/EX. 8 revolvers and 2 installments open, 1 closed. I have AZEO and SSL score boosts, but again I have lost a ton of points from inqs and new account/short credit


@Dumbee What happened September 1 your scores did you create a thread?

-Our Community’s updated scoring wisdom: Link to Scoring Primer.
-For Negative Reason Codes see: CassieCard’s Score Factors thread.
-ccquest’s workbook to calculate metrics for you: Link to Workbook.

Oct 2020 New Account Scorecard.Nov 2020, No New Account Scorecard (reassignment conflated with aging. EX9 not updated yet. Oldest/avg varies. Estimates above.)
Real world mortgage maxes are: EQ5-818, TU4-839, EX2-844.


RIP:
(Everything said is JMHO and is not endorsed by FICO or MF. I have no affiliation with either, just a grateful member.)
Message 62 of 73
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Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs


@GoNavy wrote:

@Birdman7   Additional EQ 9 DP -  NFCU reported off cycle last month I believe on the 22nd which caught me with a balance at 68.5% on my NAVY card.  I just checked and they updated their EQ FICO 9 a couple days ago showing me down 7 pts. at that until %.  3 open revolvers, one reporting <3%, Navy card reporting 68.5% and third card reporting 0%.  


@GoNavy Hey I'm sorry I just reread through the entire thread. I see were a few times my lack of sleep probably clouded my analytical ability. 

yes you're mature at Equifax and you're young at the other two.

 

I think your first instinct is correct that you switched from thin to thick at EQ, but I can't say that 100% conclusively. It is possible that you had an AOYA award, but being on a mature file, I don't think it would reach that magnitude like it did on a young/thin file for Cassie. If you're still considered thin, it would be larger than a thick though.  So my conclusion is, I believe it was scorecard change to a thick file at EQ, which was your first instinct. I'm eager for confirmation from others. This is exciting we've been looking for this threshold. 

I am eager to learn your score changes to 33, 66, and 100% of revolvers reporting, especially at TU and EQ.

The only thing that concerns me is there's evidence that the metric counted closed revolvers in the denominator on EX2, and I don't know if it does on other versions, but it's something I'm trying to watch for.


Wow you dropped 7 points for 68.5% individual and number of cards increasing. we know the number of card metric is suppressed at Experian, at least on version 8 so I'm assuming on 9 for EX as well when you get it. 


I assume your aggregate utilization is still small and it would also help to know what your total revolving balance is, to know whether it may have crossed a threshold there.

 

sorry when I was a little slow in some of my earlier posts, I was just tired.

 

edited 10.5.20 6:16pm.

-Our Community’s updated scoring wisdom: Link to Scoring Primer.
-For Negative Reason Codes see: CassieCard’s Score Factors thread.
-ccquest’s workbook to calculate metrics for you: Link to Workbook.

Oct 2020 New Account Scorecard.Nov 2020, No New Account Scorecard (reassignment conflated with aging. EX9 not updated yet. Oldest/avg varies. Estimates above.)
Real world mortgage maxes are: EQ5-818, TU4-839, EX2-844.


RIP:
(Everything said is JMHO and is not endorsed by FICO or MF. I have no affiliation with either, just a grateful member.)
Message 63 of 73
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Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs

If this is the case that means a loan is not necessary to switch to a thick profile.

 

@CassieCard 

-Our Community’s updated scoring wisdom: Link to Scoring Primer.
-For Negative Reason Codes see: CassieCard’s Score Factors thread.
-ccquest’s workbook to calculate metrics for you: Link to Workbook.

Oct 2020 New Account Scorecard.Nov 2020, No New Account Scorecard (reassignment conflated with aging. EX9 not updated yet. Oldest/avg varies. Estimates above.)
Real world mortgage maxes are: EQ5-818, TU4-839, EX2-844.


RIP:
(Everything said is JMHO and is not endorsed by FICO or MF. I have no affiliation with either, just a grateful member.)
Message 64 of 73
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Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs

@Birdman7 

I'll throw something together in a sec with some DPs

On the bright side, it looks like I may be on track to hit an 800 at 2 years-ish age like that other thread I linked : )

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Message 65 of 73
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Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs

@Birdman7 
Stats via Experian:

ExperianFICO 8FICO MTG 2FICO AUTO 8FICO AUTO 2FICO BC 8FICO BC 3FICO BC 2Rev UtilizationInstallment Util
 7477007416677796936865/42,150821/10,800
Age (Months)AAoAAoOAAoYAAoYRAAoYIAAoORAAoOIAAAoRAAAoIA
 613232121375
RevolversAge (Months)LoansAge (Months)
Syc/Care12Self*13
Cap1 QS110AOD*6
CF9Secu6
Sync/MC8Secu2
Amex HH7Secu2
Sync/PPC7Secu2
Discover7  
Secu VS6  
Secu VS 23  
Secu FR3  
Secu LOC3  
Avg6.82*Closed5.17

Last month my profile was trashed with maxed out CC + lost part of loan trick boost, so can't really bring the best data for that timeframe. But, AoORA just hit 1 year this month (Oct.), so this may be relevant

HPs: 28/12. No more points to lose from them.
 
Biggest takeaways/hypotheses:

Adding/removing an AU charge card (opened 7/20, reported in 9/20) did not affect my F8 at all, regardless of reporting a balance or not. I used a dispute and it updated from balance to no balance, no change. No change when removed by OC (not via dispute) either. I know revolver AUs may not behave the same way, so charge cards may be an exception for AU/AZEO penalty. Still, Amex lets you remove AU reporting while keeping benefits and the card, so the general recommendation for people should be to request reporting removal via Amex if they become an AU.

AZEO but a bit higher than a few percent, yet under 9% threshold still dropped my score on a card.
In order:
748/10,000 CC, 731 F8.
All zero, 725 F8.
AZEO 5/1000 CC, 741 F8.
All changes in those uti happened from 9/27-9/30. No other changes to report beside those utilizations. AZ/AZEO + that certain utilization penalty for younger scorecards is already established. 741 was the highest score I could get with loan trick + AZEO, even back in 7/20. Only this month have I been able to go surpass 741 EX8.

What I'm thinking:

AoORA is more important than AoOIA at 1 and 2 year marks. FICO weighs revolving uti more than installments, so it correlates, a simulator also implies such. It may even be essential to hit 800 on one of the bureaus at 2 year mark, rather than an installment being 2 years old but not revolver. Experian FICO 8 Simulator demonstrative , the 787 is achieved in as early as 9 months, so AoOIA may not matter, yet when AoORA hits 2 years exact, the 797 on EX is possible. Assuming scores trail similar to this DP , I could possibly hit 800+ EQ at that 2 year AoORA point. Considering how the 797 for me is closer to the 795, than a 787 would be, for that DP, I'd think AoORA is the defining factor.

AoORA hit 1 year this month, gained 6 points on EX8, 741->747. No gain on Sep. 1. That indicates to me more that revolvers are more important those installments in ages. Or it's possible that AoYRA accounts hitting 3 months may have helped, yet AoYIA are hitting 2 months, too. 

I lost and gained different amounts of points back for maxing out a CC + going from under 9% loan util to over 9%. Yet once profile fully optimized again, all the points lost were back, so utilization penalties/gains may be dynamic based on other factors (utilization in particular, across other rev/loans) in report beside segmentation factors? For example, lost 25 from going under 9% IA util, to over 9% by paying off one of two open loans. Yet going back under by paying down my only open loan at the time, only gained me back 22. This ties into utilization factor of credit scoring.


Oldest revolver is *technically* Apple card (9/2019), but I closed it, and it doesn't report to EX/EQ for me (yes, it still in fact doesn't show on my EX/EQ reports). So oldest revolver is CareCredit (10/2019, 12 months old) for Experian, which IMO is most important bureau. Oldest IA is Self (9/2019, Closed), 13 months old.


F8 Score trend via ExperianF8 Score trend via Experian

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Message 66 of 73
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Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs


@Dumbee wrote:

@Birdman7 
Stats via Experian:

ExperianFICO 8FICO MTG 2FICO AUTO 8FICO AUTO 2FICO BC 8FICO BC 3FICO BC 2Rev UtilizationInstallment Util
 7477007416677796936865/42,150821/10,800
Age (Months)AAoAAoOAAoYAAoYRAAoYIAAoORAAoOIAAAoRAAAoIA
 613232121375
RevolversAge (Months)LoansAge (Months)
Syc/Care12Self*13
Cap1 QS110AOD*6
CF9Secu6
Sync/MC8Secu2
Amex HH7Secu2
Sync/PPC7Secu2
Discover7  
Secu VS6  
Secu VS 23  
Secu FR3  
Secu LOC3  
Avg6.82*Closed5.17

Last month my profile was trashed with maxed out CC + lost part of loan trick boost, so can't really bring the best data for that timeframe. But, AoORA just hit 1 year this month (Oct.), so this may be relevant

HPs: 28/12. No more points to lose from them.
 
Biggest takeaways/hypotheses:

Adding/removing an AU charge card (opened 7/20, reported in 9/20) did not affect my F8 at all, regardless of reporting a balance or not. I used a dispute and it updated from balance to no balance, no change. No change when removed by OC (not via dispute) either. I know revolver AUs may not behave the same way, so charge cards may be an exception for AU/AZEO penalty. Still, Amex lets you remove AU reporting while keeping benefits and the card, so the general recommendation for people should be to request reporting removal via Amex if they become an AU.

AZEO but a bit higher than a few percent, yet under 9% threshold still dropped my score on a card.
In order:
748/10,000 CC, 731 F8.
All zero, 725 F8.
AZEO 5/1000 CC, 741 F8.
All changes in those uti happened from 9/27-9/30. No other changes to report beside those utilizations. AZ/AZEO + that certain utilization penalty for younger scorecards is already established. 741 was the highest score I could get with loan trick + AZEO, even back in 7/20. Only this month have I been able to go surpass 741 EX8.

What I'm thinking:

AoORA is more important than AoOIA at 1 and 2 year marks. FICO weighs revolving uti more than installments, so it correlates, a simulator also implies such. It may even be essential to hit 800 on one of the bureaus at 2 year mark, rather than an installment being 2 years old but not revolver. Experian FICO 8 Simulator demonstrative , the 787 is achieved in as early as 9 months, so AoOIA may not matter, yet when AoORA hits 2 years exact, the 797 on EX is possible. Assuming scores trail similar to this DP , I could possibly hit 800+ EQ at that 2 year AoORA point. Considering how the 797 for me is closer to the 795, than a 787 would be, for that DP, I'd think AoORA is the defining factor.

AoORA hit 1 year this month, gained 6 points on EX8, 741->747. No gain on Sep. 1. That indicates to me more that revolvers are more important those installments in ages. Or it's possible that AoYRA accounts hitting 3 months may have helped, yet AoYIA are hitting 2 months, too. 

I lost and gained different amounts of points back for maxing out a CC + going from under 9% loan util to over 9%. Yet once profile fully optimized again, all the points lost were back, so utilization penalties/gains may be dynamic based on other factors (utilization in particular, across other rev/loans) in report beside segmentation factors? For example, lost 25 from going under 9% IA util, to over 9% by paying off one of two open loans. Yet going back under by paying down my only open loan at the time, only gained me back 22. This ties into utilization factor of credit scoring.


Oldest revolver is *technically* Apple card (9/2019), but I closed it, and it doesn't report to EX/EQ for me (yes, it still in fact doesn't show on my EX/EQ reports). So oldest revolver is CareCredit (10/2019, 12 months old) for Experian, which IMO is most important bureau. Oldest IA is Self (9/2019, Closed), 13 months old.


F8 Score trend via ExperianF8 Score trend via Experian


@Dumbee wow you've got a Lotta good stuff there and I'm about to get in the shower and I've got a really look over that and digest that. But at the outset, let me tell you that your hunch that revolving is way more than important than installment is absolutely correct.


And AOYRA is only relevant at 12 months on version 8. AoYA gives awards at various thresholds, like 3 months, ect, maybe up to 24 months?

 

And it seems that most awards are in multiples of 3, so I would discount that 2 month metric. 

charge cards will not save you from the all zero penalty whether primary or authorized user. 

my hypothesis for the reason for the discrepancy crossing the 10% threshold for aggregate installment utilization is that when you paid off that loan, your AoOOIA (age of oldest open installment account) was reduced, am I correct?

 

also keep in mind, there are thresholds for revolving balances and installment balances in dollar amounts, not only utilization, which is a percentage. So in other words you can lose points just for your total aggregate revolving or installment balance crossing certain thresholds. 

by the way thank you for the great data points I can't wait to analyze them further!

-Our Community’s updated scoring wisdom: Link to Scoring Primer.
-For Negative Reason Codes see: CassieCard’s Score Factors thread.
-ccquest’s workbook to calculate metrics for you: Link to Workbook.

Oct 2020 New Account Scorecard.Nov 2020, No New Account Scorecard (reassignment conflated with aging. EX9 not updated yet. Oldest/avg varies. Estimates above.)
Real world mortgage maxes are: EQ5-818, TU4-839, EX2-844.


RIP:
(Everything said is JMHO and is not endorsed by FICO or MF. I have no affiliation with either, just a grateful member.)
Message 67 of 73
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Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs

@Dumbee Yeah you already gave me the data, lol, your oldest open loan was over a year old and you closed it, that’s probably the other 3 points.

However it could’ve been total installment balances. What were your balances under 9% the first time and second time?

One of those two factors in my humble opinion.
-Our Community’s updated scoring wisdom: Link to Scoring Primer.
-For Negative Reason Codes see: CassieCard’s Score Factors thread.
-ccquest’s workbook to calculate metrics for you: Link to Workbook.

Oct 2020 New Account Scorecard.Nov 2020, No New Account Scorecard (reassignment conflated with aging. EX9 not updated yet. Oldest/avg varies. Estimates above.)
Real world mortgage maxes are: EQ5-818, TU4-839, EX2-844.


RIP:
(Everything said is JMHO and is not endorsed by FICO or MF. I have no affiliation with either, just a grateful member.)
Message 68 of 73
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Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs


@Birdman7 wrote:
@DumbeeYeah you already gave me the data, lol, your oldest open loan was over a year old and you closed it, that’s probably the other 3 points.

However it could’ve been total installment balances. What were your balances under 9% the first time and second time?

One of those two factors in my humble opinion.

@Birdman7 
Oldest open loan wasn't over a year old, the Self (9/2019) was closed in 5/2020.

My two open loans at the time, AOD & SECU, had balances of 8/3000, 132/1000, respectively, for an aggregate utilization of 3.5% (140/4000). They were both opened at the same time, 4/2020, so both were my oldest open ones.

After closing the AOD, I had just the one loan from SECU 132/1000 (13.2%), and lost 25 pts.

After paying down the SECU loan to 1/1000 (.1%), I gained 22 pts, it was only open loan on report at time.

Once I went back to AZEO with a small balance 5/1000, instead of a higher balance (748/10000), all my points "recovered" back to 741, which I was stuck at even back in July. Though I went up 6 more points this month, 747.

I added 3 new loans in 8/2020, they reported a day or two after I had the single SECU loan 1/1000 reporting that balance, no change in FICO 8.

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Message 69 of 73
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Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs


@Birdman7 wrote:

@Dumbee wrote:

@Birdman7 
Stats via Experian:

ExperianFICO 8FICO MTG 2FICO AUTO 8FICO AUTO 2FICO BC 8FICO BC 3FICO BC 2Rev UtilizationInstallment Util
 7477007416677796936865/42,150821/10,800
Age (Months)AAoAAoOAAoYAAoYRAAoYIAAoORAAoOIAAAoRAAAoIA
 613232121375
RevolversAge (Months)LoansAge (Months)
Syc/Care12Self*13
Cap1 QS110AOD*6
CF9Secu6
Sync/MC8Secu2
Amex HH7Secu2
Sync/PPC7Secu2
Discover7  
Secu VS6  
Secu VS 23  
Secu FR3  
Secu LOC3  
Avg6.82*Closed5.17

Last month my profile was trashed with maxed out CC + lost part of loan trick boost, so can't really bring the best data for that timeframe. But, AoORA just hit 1 year this month (Oct.), so this may be relevant

HPs: 28/12. No more points to lose from them.
 
Biggest takeaways/hypotheses:

Adding/removing an AU charge card (opened 7/20, reported in 9/20) did not affect my F8 at all, regardless of reporting a balance or not. I used a dispute and it updated from balance to no balance, no change. No change when removed by OC (not via dispute) either. I know revolver AUs may not behave the same way, so charge cards may be an exception for AU/AZEO penalty. Still, Amex lets you remove AU reporting while keeping benefits and the card, so the general recommendation for people should be to request reporting removal via Amex if they become an AU.

AZEO but a bit higher than a few percent, yet under 9% threshold still dropped my score on a card.
In order:
748/10,000 CC, 731 F8.
All zero, 725 F8.
AZEO 5/1000 CC, 741 F8.
All changes in those uti happened from 9/27-9/30. No other changes to report beside those utilizations. AZ/AZEO + that certain utilization penalty for younger scorecards is already established. 741 was the highest score I could get with loan trick + AZEO, even back in 7/20. Only this month have I been able to go surpass 741 EX8.

What I'm thinking:

AoORA is more important than AoOIA at 1 and 2 year marks. FICO weighs revolving uti more than installments, so it correlates, a simulator also implies such. It may even be essential to hit 800 on one of the bureaus at 2 year mark, rather than an installment being 2 years old but not revolver. Experian FICO 8 Simulator demonstrative , the 787 is achieved in as early as 9 months, so AoOIA may not matter, yet when AoORA hits 2 years exact, the 797 on EX is possible. Assuming scores trail similar to this DP , I could possibly hit 800+ EQ at that 2 year AoORA point. Considering how the 797 for me is closer to the 795, than a 787 would be, for that DP, I'd think AoORA is the defining factor.

AoORA hit 1 year this month, gained 6 points on EX8, 741->747. No gain on Sep. 1. That indicates to me more that revolvers are more important those installments in ages. Or it's possible that AoYRA accounts hitting 3 months may have helped, yet AoYIA are hitting 2 months, too. 

I lost and gained different amounts of points back for maxing out a CC + going from under 9% loan util to over 9%. Yet once profile fully optimized again, all the points lost were back, so utilization penalties/gains may be dynamic based on other factors (utilization in particular, across other rev/loans) in report beside segmentation factors? For example, lost 25 from going under 9% IA util, to over 9% by paying off one of two open loans. Yet going back under by paying down my only open loan at the time, only gained me back 22. This ties into utilization factor of credit scoring.


Oldest revolver is *technically* Apple card (9/2019), but I closed it, and it doesn't report to EX/EQ for me (yes, it still in fact doesn't show on my EX/EQ reports). So oldest revolver is CareCredit (10/2019, 12 months old) for Experian, which IMO is most important bureau. Oldest IA is Self (9/2019, Closed), 13 months old.


F8 Score trend via ExperianF8 Score trend via Experian


@Dumbee wow you've got a Lotta good stuff there and I'm about to get in the shower and I've got a really look over that and digest that. But at the outset, let me tell you that your hunch that revolving is way more than important than installment is absolutely correct.


And AOYRA is only relevant at 12 months on version 8. AoYA gives awards at various thresholds, like 3 months, ect, maybe up to 24 months?

 

And it seems that most awards are in multiples of 3, so I would discount that 2 month metric. 

charge cards will not save you from the all zero penalty whether primary or authorized user. 

my hypothesis for the reason for the discrepancy crossing the 10% threshold for aggregate installment utilization is that when you paid off that loan, your AoOOIA (age of oldest open installment account) was reduced, am I correct?

 

also keep in mind, there are thresholds for revolving balances and installment balances in dollar amounts, not only utilization, which is a percentage. So in other words you can lose points just for your total aggregate revolving or installment balance crossing certain thresholds. 

by the way thank you for the great data points I can't wait to analyze them further!


I know revolving % is more important than installment. I was implying that due to that, the age thresholds on revolving would most likely be more important than installments. By plugging in on the simulator, the oldest revolving account hitting 24 months is what lets me go all the way up to 797, 

I had no point gain/loss from having the AU, regardless of it reporting a balance or not. No points gained/lost from adding/removing it from report either. Though it may be a useful trick to remove it for many if they want to use an AU Amex without having it report. 

 

AoOOIA wasn't reduced. Both oldest open loans at the time were AOD and SECU, each opened 4/2020. Closing AOD lost me 25. Paying down SECU from 132/1000, to 100/1000, gained me nothing. Paying it down to 1/1000, gained me 22.

Adding new loans with a new aggregate utilization of 821/10800 did not change my F8 score at all. 

 

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Message 70 of 73
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