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Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs

Super Contributor

Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs

@Dumbee wrote:

@Birdman7 wrote:
@DumbeeYeah you already gave me the data, lol, your oldest open loan was over a year old and you closed it, that’s probably the other 3 points.

However it could’ve been total installment balances. What were your balances under 9% the first time and second time?

One of those two factors in my humble opinion.

Oldest open loan wasn't over a year old, the Self (9/2019) was closed in 5/2020.

My two open loans at the time, AOD & SECU, had balances of 8/3000, 132/1000, respectively, for an aggregate utilization of 3.5% (140/4000). They were both opened at the same time, 4/2020, so both were my oldest open ones.

After closing the AOD, I had just the one loan from SECU 132/1000 (13.2%), and lost 25 pts.

After paying down the SECU loan to 1/1000 (.1%), I gained 22 pts, it was only open loan on report at time.

Once I went back to AZEO with a small balance 5/1000, instead of a higher balance (748/10000), all my points "recovered" back to 741, which I was stuck at even back in July. Though I went up 6 more points this month, 747.

I added 3 new loans in 8/2020, they reported a day or two after I had the single SECU loan 1/1000 reporting that balance, no change in FICO 8.

@Dumbee so the 3 points were due to revolving balances?

Message 71 of 73
Super Contributor

Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs

@Dumbee wrote:

@Birdman7 wrote:

@Dumbee wrote:

Stats via Experian:

ExperianFICO 8FICO MTG 2FICO AUTO 8FICO AUTO 2FICO BC 8FICO BC 3FICO BC 2Rev UtilizationInstallment Util
RevolversAge (Months)LoansAge (Months)
Cap1 QS110AOD*6
Amex HH7Secu2
Secu VS6  
Secu VS 23  
Secu FR3  
Secu LOC3  

Last month my profile was trashed with maxed out CC + lost part of loan trick boost, so can't really bring the best data for that timeframe. But, AoORA just hit 1 year this month (Oct.), so this may be relevant

HPs: 28/12. No more points to lose from them.
Biggest takeaways/hypotheses:

Adding/removing an AU charge card (opened 7/20, reported in 9/20) did not affect my F8 at all, regardless of reporting a balance or not. I used a dispute and it updated from balance to no balance, no change. No change when removed by OC (not via dispute) either. I know revolver AUs may not behave the same way, so charge cards may be an exception for AU/AZEO penalty. Still, Amex lets you remove AU reporting while keeping benefits and the card, so the general recommendation for people should be to request reporting removal via Amex if they become an AU.

AZEO but a bit higher than a few percent, yet under 9% threshold still dropped my score on a card.
In order:
748/10,000 CC, 731 F8.
All zero, 725 F8.
AZEO 5/1000 CC, 741 F8.
All changes in those uti happened from 9/27-9/30. No other changes to report beside those utilizations. AZ/AZEO + that certain utilization penalty for younger scorecards is already established. 741 was the highest score I could get with loan trick + AZEO, even back in 7/20. Only this month have I been able to go surpass 741 EX8.

What I'm thinking:

AoORA is more important than AoOIA at 1 and 2 year marks. FICO weighs revolving uti more than installments, so it correlates, a simulator also implies such. It may even be essential to hit 800 on one of the bureaus at 2 year mark, rather than an installment being 2 years old but not revolver. Experian FICO 8 Simulator demonstrative , the 787 is achieved in as early as 9 months, so AoOIA may not matter, yet when AoORA hits 2 years exact, the 797 on EX is possible. Assuming scores trail similar to this DP , I could possibly hit 800+ EQ at that 2 year AoORA point. Considering how the 797 for me is closer to the 795, than a 787 would be, for that DP, I'd think AoORA is the defining factor.

AoORA hit 1 year this month, gained 6 points on EX8, 741->747. No gain on Sep. 1. That indicates to me more that revolvers are more important those installments in ages. Or it's possible that AoYRA accounts hitting 3 months may have helped, yet AoYIA are hitting 2 months, too. 

I lost and gained different amounts of points back for maxing out a CC + going from under 9% loan util to over 9%. Yet once profile fully optimized again, all the points lost were back, so utilization penalties/gains may be dynamic based on other factors (utilization in particular, across other rev/loans) in report beside segmentation factors? For example, lost 25 from going under 9% IA util, to over 9% by paying off one of two open loans. Yet going back under by paying down my only open loan at the time, only gained me back 22. This ties into utilization factor of credit scoring.

Oldest revolver is *technically* Apple card (9/2019), but I closed it, and it doesn't report to EX/EQ for me (yes, it still in fact doesn't show on my EX/EQ reports). So oldest revolver is CareCredit (10/2019, 12 months old) for Experian, which IMO is most important bureau. Oldest IA is Self (9/2019, Closed), 13 months old.

F8 Score trend via ExperianF8 Score trend via Experian

@Dumbee wow you've got a Lotta good stuff there and I'm about to get in the shower and I've got a really look over that and digest that. But at the outset, let me tell you that your hunch that revolving is way more than important than installment is absolutely correct.

And AOYRA is only relevant at 12 months on version 8. AoYA gives awards at various thresholds, like 3 months, ect, maybe up to 24 months?


And it seems that most awards are in multiples of 3, so I would discount that 2 month metric. 

charge cards will not save you from the all zero penalty whether primary or authorized user. 

my hypothesis for the reason for the discrepancy crossing the 10% threshold for aggregate installment utilization is that when you paid off that loan, your AoOOIA (age of oldest open installment account) was reduced, am I correct?


also keep in mind, there are thresholds for revolving balances and installment balances in dollar amounts, not only utilization, which is a percentage. So in other words you can lose points just for your total aggregate revolving or installment balance crossing certain thresholds. 

by the way thank you for the great data points I can't wait to analyze them further!

I know revolving % is more important than installment. I was implying that due to that, the age thresholds on revolving would most likely be more important than installments. By plugging in on the simulator, the oldest revolving account hitting 24 months is what lets me go all the way up to 797, 

I had no point gain/loss from having the AU, regardless of it reporting a balance or not. No points gained/lost from adding/removing it from report either. Though it may be a useful trick to remove it for many if they want to use an AU Amex without having it report. 


AoOOIA wasn't reduced. Both oldest open loans at the time were AOD and SECU, each opened 4/2020. Closing AOD lost me 25. Paying down SECU from 132/1000, to 100/1000, gained me nothing. Paying it down to 1/1000, gained me 22.

Adding new loans with a new aggregate utilization of 821/10800 did not change my F8 score at all. 


@Dumbee Yes, revolving thresholds, whether utilization, balance, or age thresholds are definitely more important and larger awards/penalties than installment, you are absolutely correct! @CassieCard discovered her scores were not as high as they could be, because she started with a loan a year before a CC. Your findings confirm that. Great job!


I don't know if the AU was counting or caught by the anti-abuse algorithm, but either way, chargecards do not count towards utilization, primary or AU, except on EX2. Neither do they save you from AZ penalty since they aren't revolvers. It is a nice feature!


Adding installment balances didn't give back the 3 points, so must have been revolving balances. You said you got back to your max afterwards, what was the difference in revolving balances? Find the threshold?

Message 72 of 73
Super Contributor

Re: Clean/Thin/Young..ish/New Account DPs

Another interesting, little studied metric is the revolver to loan metric. But it’s credit mix, so it’s not a lot of points.
Message 73 of 73
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