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From 1 to 0 inquiries on a clean/young/thin file

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Senior Contributor

Re: From 1 to 0 inquiries on a clean/young/thin file

@Rev EX FICO 3 seems to be the most harsh outta all the flavors I have access to, TBH. Ever hear of anyone using it?

If/when you test it, IIRC, it was 2 or 3 revolvers reporting over the putative 28.9%, but it could very well be over a different percentage threshold, or maybe that's where the dollar amount comes in, as you suggested.

Would be interesting to get to the bottom of it.













(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)
Scores updated March 2020.

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (aged/nonaged), AoYR-Age of Youngest Revolver (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/aged/new accounts, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just list whether you have any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AoYR and whether you have a loan on record.
For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment. please.
Message 21 of 37
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Senior Contributor

Re: From 1 to 0 inquiries on a clean/young/thin file

@CassieCard I tend to agree with your analysis. So, you measured the point loss for the inquiry on ALL 7 EX flavors and none of them returned the same amount of points lost?

AoYA (or AoYR) is also a known segmenter, but I don't believe 5-4-2 segments AoYA at 1 year. So what if the AoOA threshold is 2 years then? Wow, the implications! Shame they are conflated though.

What effect do you believe it may be having that you only have 1 year of revolving history with AoOA @ 2 years?

You could also be correct about that clue. If so, then it may include non-mortgage amounts owed too, which would explain the disparity among people, considering I've never saw anyone take into account non-mortgage balances with revolving balances on this, or anything close.

(Posted my last message before I saw yours...falling asleep and didn't refresh, lol.)













(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)
Scores updated March 2020.

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (aged/nonaged), AoYR-Age of Youngest Revolver (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/aged/new accounts, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just list whether you have any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AoYR and whether you have a loan on record.
For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment. please.
Message 22 of 37
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Established Contributor

Re: From 1 to 0 inquiries on a clean/young/thin file


@Birdman7 wrote:
@CassieCard I tend to agree with your analysis. So, you measured the point loss for the inquiry on ALL 7 EX flavors and none of them returned the same amount of points lost?

Yes, I had good clean data for those 7 EX scores and EQ 8, due to starting a $1 CCT trial about an hour before I applied for my Citi Costco Visa card on December 23rd. Citi double-pulled EQ/EX and then 8 days later (Dec 31) I signed up for myFICO's monthly 3B subscription.

 

In the Experian data below, look at the difference between 12/23/18 and 12/31/18. No changes in file between those dates: AoOA, AAoA, and AoYA all at 1 year since there was only one account on file - the SSL at 8.47% which didn't report as closed until the January 10 3B report.

 

Compare to the difference between 12/21/19 and 12/23/19. Again, no changes in file between those 2 dates. None of them returned the same number of points, but there was a better return on the EX 2 models and EX 3.

 

EQ dropped from 750 to 730 (-20pts) last year with the single inquiry, and gained +11pts a year later (719 to 730).

 

ex-historical-all_to_122319.png

 

What effect do you believe it may be having that you only have 1 year of revolving history with AoOA @ 2 years?

I think my scores would be higher with 2 years of revolving history and AoOA at 2 years. A year of installment loan history doesn't seem the same as a year of revolving credit history, at least on classic FICO 8. The closed installment loan might be helping more on the Mortgage/Auto models, but I've never seen a 3B report from someone with only 2 cards at 1 year to compare.

 

You could also be correct about that clue. If so, then it may include non-mortgage amounts owed too, which would explain the disparity among people, considering I've never saw anyone take into account non-mortgage balances with revolving balances on this, or anything close.

I think you overlooked it due to lack of sleep haha: "Besides any mortgage loans, what are your total balances on all other loans and credit cards combined?"

 

Maybe 'Heavy use of revolving credit' is using the same dollar value intervals as listed under that question.

Message 23 of 37
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Senior Contributor

Re: From 1 to 0 inquiries on a clean/young/thin file

No actually I didn’t overlook it, but you are close. I just mispoke due to lack of sleep, LOL.

I meant to say non-mortgage installment balances WITH revolving balances.

I looked at the estimator and I totally get what you’re saying, and you might be right is what I was saying. I just wasn’t able to articulate it clearly, LOL.













(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)
Scores updated March 2020.

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (aged/nonaged), AoYR-Age of Youngest Revolver (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/aged/new accounts, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just list whether you have any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AoYR and whether you have a loan on record.
For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment. please.
Message 24 of 37
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Moderator Emeritus

Re: From 1 to 0 inquiries on a clean/young/thin file


@Birdman7 wrote:
@Rev EX FICO 3 seems to be the most harsh outta all the flavors I have access to, TBH. Ever hear of anyone using it?

If/when you test it, IIRC, it was 2 or 3 revolvers reporting over the putative 28.9%, but it could very well be over a different percentage threshold, or maybe that's where the dollar amount comes in, as you suggested.

Would be interesting to get to the bottom of it.

I don't know any lenders from 2012 onward that ever used EX FICO 3.  Maybe some of the majors did before they switched to FICO 8 in 2011 but since I don't really know those details before then (wasn't on this forum till 12/2011) not sure.

 

Frankly it seemed like the score lenders forgot: the GSE's never switched to it and stayed on EX FICO 2 and the rest of the market followed suit. 

 

EX FICO 3 like all FICO 04 models for clean score cards seems to weight new accounts more vs. everything else... I think it's a scorecard segmenter actually whereas in FICO 2/8 it's certainly not the primary one and might just be a modifier within other scorecards.

 

Total score value it's actually slightly higher than my EX FICO 2 score, and somewhat lower than my EX FICO 8.

 

Between bureaus not sure, EX FICO 3 / EQ FICO 5 (both FICO 04 based) seemed to most heavily penalize negatives, whereas EQ FICO 5 is my top score pre-F8/9 when clean (EX / EQ are identical currently report wise)... TU FICO 4 I've never been out of the derogatory scorecards but my score is supiciously high there and always has been when dirty compared to the others.  EX FICO 2 always fell between TU FICO 4 and EQ FICO 5 for me when dirty.

 

 

 




        
Message 25 of 37
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Moderator Emeritus

Re: From 1 to 0 inquiries on a clean/young/thin file

Cassie: you're likely right on the scoring in terms of being higher with longer revolving history.

 

TBH we've had people after 1 year be at 760 and after 2 years be at 800 for FICO 8, though to my knowledge all of them started with at least 3 revolvers.  




        
Message 26 of 37
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Established Contributor

Re: From 1 to 0 inquiries on a clean/young/thin file


@Revelate wrote:

Cassie: you're likely right on the scoring in terms of being higher with longer revolving history.

 

TBH we've had people after 1 year be at 760 and after 2 years be at 800 for FICO 8, though to my knowledge all of them started with at least 3 revolvers.  


Next week on Wednesday I will get a myFICO alert to a change in balance at TU - from $180.00 (9% ind. util) to $0. Back in July this caused my TU score to go up +14pts (AZEO, 1 of 2), but it might not be as good if I'm on a different scorecard now. EQ 8 went up +19pts at AZEO.

 

So even with that best case scenario, TU 8 will be at 754.

 

EX 3 761 and TU Bankcard 4 763  are my highest scores now at 0 scorable inquiries. Both still have the 'Recently opened new credit account' factor at AoYA 1 year: EX 3 has it at #4, TU BC4 has it at #3.

Message 27 of 37
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Senior Contributor

Re: From 1 to 0 inquiries on a clean/young/thin file

@CassieCard Looking forward to your DPs!













(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)
Scores updated March 2020.

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (aged/nonaged), AoYR-Age of Youngest Revolver (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/aged/new accounts, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just list whether you have any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AoYR and whether you have a loan on record.
For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment. please.
Message 28 of 37
Highlighted
Senior Contributor

Re: From 1 to 0 inquiries on a clean/young/thin file


@Revelate wrote:

EX FICO 3 like all FICO 04 models for clean score cards seems to weight new accounts more vs. everything else... I think it's a scorecard segmenter actually whereas in FICO 2/8 it's certainly not the primary one and might just be a modifier within other scorecards.


I believe new accounts is the last segmenter on FICO 8. I believe I listened to a interview with Tom Quinn linked by @CassieCard where he described segmentation going in this order: clean/dirty > thick/thin > aged/nonaged > new accounts/no new accounts. With that said, that path may be different for versions other than 8, which he was discussing. So, it makes alot of sense what you implied about the order of segmentation. I'd also note the topic was not segmentation or its order, but he described that order in discussing how a score is generated, IIRC.













(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)
Scores updated March 2020.

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (aged/nonaged), AoYR-Age of Youngest Revolver (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/aged/new accounts, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just list whether you have any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AoYR and whether you have a loan on record.
For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment. please.
Message 29 of 37
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Established Contributor

Re: From 1 to 0 inquiries on a clean/young/thin file


@Revelate wrote:

Heavy Use might actually be a dollar value instead.

 

Strange that, now that I think of it that must've counted under EX FICO 2 too for my 43.5K CSR.  I have a high TCL though, 208.7K to be precise and going from 1.1k to <400 doesn't seem relevant percentage wise TBH.


Here's something interesting....

 

EX 2 went up +3pts from 724 to 727 after my first card reported this month (Jan 4 EX report) with a change in individual balance from $180 to $0. Going from 2/2 with a balance to 1/2 with a balance , 8% aggregate to 6% aggregate, $816 to $636 total balance. No change in score factors and 'High Revolving Balances' was at #3.

 

Now on the Jan5 report, EX 2 goes up another +7pts from 727 to 734. The second card reported a new lower balance of $539 (from $636) which is a change in individual utilization from 8% to 6%, aggregate 6% to 5%, 1 of 2 with a balance.

"High Revolving Balances' disappeared! 'Too many accounts with balances' moved up to #3 and 'No recent loan activity' moved into #4.

 

It's either the 5% aggregate triggering that or a total revolving balance between $636 and $539.

Message 30 of 37
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