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So my FICO8 is capped at 774 not even AZEO helps (was: Effect of one inquiry on FICO8 and FICO2)

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Established Contributor

Re: Effect of one inquiry on FICO8 and FICO2

Update: AZEO did not budge my score.

 

Over the past few days my cards reported and I'm now officially AZEO--only one account reporting a balance (BoA premium) and it's reporting a balance of 4% of that card's limit which is under 1% of my overall limit.

 

And my FICO8 score is still 774. Meanwhile my FICO2 score *dropped* from 797 to 788. This is EX as reported on CCT.

 

No adverse information on my file (no late's, no records, no collections, etc). The only negatives I can think of are that my overall history is relatively short (4y9m oldest and 3y6m avg) and as mentioned I have no installment loans. I also have no inquiries in the last 12 months and no new accounts in the last 12 months.

 

SO.... somehow I am in some sort of bucket that caps out at 774 and doesn't go any higher no matter what. Except maybe adding installments, which would probably make it worse before better.

 

AND... it looks like FICO2 (mortgage) is more sensitive to balance than number of accounts. That $1104, while only 4%, is a higher total balance than I reported last month when it was spread across 2 or 3 accounts (at different times) with a FICO2 of 797. So the increased balance (either overall or on 1 account) must have dropped me and going from AZE2 to AZE1 didn't help me. Can't think what else it could be.

 

What could be the bucket?

 

It must be clean + thick file (10 open + 4 closed accounts) + short history (under X years, where X>4y9m) + no installment = 774 maximum possible FICO8. Either that or I'm cursed.


Amex BCE $40k || BoA Travel $5k || FirstTech MC $5k || BECU PLoC $10k || Discover Miles $27.7k || CITI DC $27.5k || CHASE Amazon $12.5k || BoA Premium Rewards $31k || BoA Cash Rewards 26k // AU on DW's Costco Visa $12k FICO8 774
Last Inq 04/2018
Message 31 of 47
Moderator Emeritus

Re: Effect of one inquiry on FICO8 and FICO2

Well, AZEO doesn't really mean much in FICO 8 terms unless you have 4 cards or fewer, even at 5 cards you have more wiggle room and at 9 when talking EX you can have 4/9 reporting a balance.

 

FICO 2 not so much, cleaning up my balances down to revolving AZEO (and two installment loans which are probably things there for open balances on accounts unlike FICO 8) resulted in 14 point gain, even 7 points on the last breakpoint that appears to be at 20%... which totally sucks to optimize for but I digress.

 

(Basically if that line holds our usual 3 revolvers + 1 installment and just take the ding on EQ FICO 8 gets blown up if we're talking FICO 2 and appears to be EQ FICO 5 and TU FICO 4 too as I got big movement there too: cleaning up balances then the new math is 10 cards 1 installment, which is laughable to optimize for... I really hope I'm wrong).

 

I will say I would get stuck at a given score for months or even years at a time on some (EQ FICO 5 for example) and once your credit is mature and if you're not opening accounts or whatever really your only shifts come from balance changes and aging metrics... but if you put the AZEO lipstick on and you're not having balance changes, basically your score flatlines till you hit an aging threshold.

 

My experience anyway, though recent data suggests there may be more aging thresholds than we thought around AAOA, that's a nice find at least.

 

 




        
Message 32 of 47
Valued Contributor

Re: Effect of one inquiry on FICO8 and FICO2

CiS Well, it appears the bucket you are in is clean/nonaged/thick/no new account.

No one outside Fair Isaac probably knows for sure where the line is for aged, so I’m taking a little bit of liberty and making an assumption there. Likewise since you have over 10 accounts we are making the assumption you are in the thick bucket. Likewise we are assuming the line is that one year to say you were in the no new accounts bucket.

With all that said, we are recently discovering when someone has a revolver only profile with no open or closed installment loans, the profile seems to react much more strongly no matter what the scorecard. You asked are you limited to that top score. As @Revelate pointed out, you will reach aging thresholds and receive points at those aging thresholds. Additionally, at some point you’re going to hit the aged threshold for AooA, which is going to rebucket you into an aged scorecard.

You considered the possibility of adding an installment loan and the potential effect that would have on your profile. Well the immediate results would be AoYA would be reset, which would cause you to be rebucketed into a new account scorecard. You would also take a hit for the inquiry assuming there was one. Last, you will take a hit to AAoA.

While it might be hard to quantify all this precisely, we can say this: one year from that point you would receive your inquiry points back and would have received significant (if not all) AoYA points back. AAoA loss would likely be insignificant, especially compared with the gains you would have from both credit mix and potentially installment balance ratio if you were to use the SSLT.

It also makes sense that you didn’t have any difference between AZEO and AZE2 considering the number of cards you have, now that I’ve learned it’s all based on percentages.

@Revelate That would definitely suck if the line is at 20%. What did you mean about the 2 loans being there for open balances on accounts unlike on FICO 8? Please explain.
New:
Under Recon:Should I?




Installment loan reported this month,so technically, I'm at 2 months, but AoYA points were NOT reset. When new CCs hit and it is reset, I'll put the number it is.+0,+2,+2(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)
Scores updated AUG 4, '19. Since then, 4 HP dings to add; will update again.
Message 33 of 47
Moderator Emeritus

Re: Effect of one inquiry on FICO8 and FICO2


@Birdman7 wrote:

@Revelate That would definitely suck if the line is at 20%. What did you mean about the 2 loans being there for open balances on accounts unlike on FICO 8? Please explain.

Basically that all the testing I and others did against FICO 8 it appears to be on revolvers only; I got consistent ratios regardless of how many installment loans I had open at the time.

 

The older models (FICO 04 and earlier) appear to be on accounts with balances, TT had seen that reason code even at AZEO for revolvers but AFAIK he only had 6 accounts at the time and we've had other reports about that from people who have been tracking their mortgage scores.

 

We didn't have much other than the old Scorewatch (and almost all of those users are now gone) for access to mortgage scores on a frequent basis before Experian released their current service... but so far the intersection of the various datasets (and the reason codes themselves) suggest that it's accounts rather than revolvers and so installment tradelines are included.

 

For various reasons I'm kicking free money at my auto loan and after I find the top breakpoint I'll see if there's really any point to keeping it open with my mortgage (people including myself have been spouting various theories around mortgages but none of us have proven it conclusively), otherwise I'll have to open up yet another credit card to see if it's exactly at 20% or if some prior information wasn't quite fully correct and it's just revolvers.

 

Would prefer not to do that just yet but meh, science!




        
Message 34 of 47
Valued Contributor

Re: Effect of one inquiry on FICO8 and FICO2

@Revelate I thought that’s what you were saying but I thought all accounts were included on all algorithms. I definitely wanted to clarify to make sure that I was understanding correctly.

So now the conventional wisdom is revolvers only for 8 and revolvers plus installment accounts for previous models?

Thank you very much for taking time to explain that .
New:
Under Recon:Should I?




Installment loan reported this month,so technically, I'm at 2 months, but AoYA points were NOT reset. When new CCs hit and it is reset, I'll put the number it is.+0,+2,+2(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)
Scores updated AUG 4, '19. Since then, 4 HP dings to add; will update again.
Message 35 of 47
Moderator Emeritus

Re: Effect of one inquiry on FICO8 and FICO2


@Birdman7 wrote:
@Revelate I thought that’s what you were saying but I thought all accounts were included on all algorithms. I definitely wanted to clarify to make sure that I was understanding correctly.

So now the conventional wisdom is revolvers only for 8 and revolvers plus installment accounts for previous models?

Thank you very much for taking time to explain that .

Yup!




        
Message 36 of 47
Established Contributor

Re: Effect of one inquiry on FICO8 and FICO2

OK. So, it looks like I should stop trying to AZEO -- actually costing me a few bucks since I'm avoiding spending on the optimal cards to keep it to one card. I should instead focus on paying balances down ahead of statements to keep the overall utilization very low and not worry about how many cards report so long as it's 1 to 3 of them.

 

 


Amex BCE $40k || BoA Travel $5k || FirstTech MC $5k || BECU PLoC $10k || Discover Miles $27.7k || CITI DC $27.5k || CHASE Amazon $12.5k || BoA Premium Rewards $31k || BoA Cash Rewards 26k // AU on DW's Costco Visa $12k FICO8 774
Last Inq 04/2018
Message 37 of 47
Established Contributor

Re: Effect of one inquiry on FICO8 and FICO2

AHA!

 

Well I think I know why my FICO2 dropped to 788 from 797 when I got to AZEO.

 

I went AZEO on my BoA Premium Rewards card, reporting $1107 out of a limit of $31,000. When I look at my FICO2 I see this reason on CCT:

 

"Not Using Revolving Credit

There are no recent balances on your revolving and/or open-ended accounts.

Your credit report shows no recent balances on your revolving and/or open-ended accounts. People with low balances on their revolving and/or open-ended accounts are generally less risky to lenders."

 

That was not there previously and it's only there for FICO2, FICO8 isn't calling that out. Plainly FICO2 has excluded my 31k limit and now thinks I have no balance, so I can't AZEO on that card. It would have to be on some other one. I think I will just go back to letting 2-3 cards report since it seems like trying to game this is just hurting me.


Amex BCE $40k || BoA Travel $5k || FirstTech MC $5k || BECU PLoC $10k || Discover Miles $27.7k || CITI DC $27.5k || CHASE Amazon $12.5k || BoA Premium Rewards $31k || BoA Cash Rewards 26k // AU on DW's Costco Visa $12k FICO8 774
Last Inq 04/2018
Message 38 of 47
Valued Contributor

Re: Effect of one inquiry on FICO8 and FICO2

CiS, I've got to hand it to you, though. It appears you are doing a pretty good job of sniffing this out. I wonder if your revolver being excluded at that CL is due to it being different for revolver-only profiles. But, I also wonder if there is anything special about how that card reports to EX. Can you carefully review how it is reported, preferably on an annualcreditreport.com CR? Something is fishy!
New:
Under Recon:Should I?




Installment loan reported this month,so technically, I'm at 2 months, but AoYA points were NOT reset. When new CCs hit and it is reset, I'll put the number it is.+0,+2,+2(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)
Scores updated AUG 4, '19. Since then, 4 HP dings to add; will update again.
Message 39 of 47
Established Contributor

Re: Effect of one inquiry on FICO8 and FICO2

 

Updating on this. I still haven't taken another inquiry, but my file has progressed a bit. 

 

Fico8 is *still* capped at 774. It has bounced between 769 and 774 depending on the balances I let report but never higher. Currently 774 as I have only a few low balances reporting.

 

This month my oldest account aged over 5 years. FICO2 responded immediately, jumping from 797 to hit 804 (yay! first time I've ever had any score start with an 8) but FICO8--still stuck at 774. Didn't budge. I guess the FICO2 is the one that matters so I'm happy, this is really a curiosity--whatever is going on with FICO8, I'm at some limit. This is according to Experian's CCT.


Amex BCE $40k || BoA Travel $5k || FirstTech MC $5k || BECU PLoC $10k || Discover Miles $27.7k || CITI DC $27.5k || CHASE Amazon $12.5k || BoA Premium Rewards $31k || BoA Cash Rewards 26k // AU on DW's Costco Visa $12k FICO8 774
Last Inq 04/2018
Message 40 of 47
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