cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

question about high credit lines excluded from FICO8 scoring

Thomas_Thumb
Senior Contributor

Re: question about high credit lines excluded from FICO8 scoring

It is still an account. If the account has a balance it should be included in the number of accounts with balances as that is not revolver specific.

Fico 9: .......EQ 850 TU 850 EX 850
Fico 8: .......EQ 850 TU 850 EX 850
Fico 4 .....:. EQ 809 TU 823 EX 830 EX Fico 98: 842
Fico 8 BC:. EQ 892 TU 900 EX 900
Fico 8 AU:. EQ 887 TU 897 EX 899
Fico 4 BC:. EQ 826 TU 858, EX Fico 98 BC: 870
Fico 4 AU:. EQ 831 TU 872, EX Fico 98 AU: 861
VS 3.0:...... EQ 835 TU 835 EX 835
CBIS: ........EQ LN Auto 940 EQ LN Home 870 TU Auto 902 TU Home 950
Message 41 of 79
Birdman7
Super Contributor

Re: question about high credit lines excluded from FICO8 scoring

Thank you! I'm glad you corrected me because I was starting to theorize in the wrong direction. 

-Our Community’s updated scoring wisdom: Link to Scoring Primer.
-For Negative Reason Codes see: CassieCard’s Score Factors thread.
-ccquest’s workbook to calculate metrics for you: Link to Workbook.

Correct Ag.Util. under 5% all times. (Oldest/avg varies. Estimates above.)
Real world mortgage maxes are: EQ5-818, TU4-839, EX2-844.

RIP:

(Everything said is JMHO and is not endorsed by FICO or MF. I have no affiliation with either, just a grateful member.)
Message 42 of 79
tacpoly
Established Contributor

Re: question about high credit lines excluded from FICO8 scoring


@Birdman7 wrote:

@tacpoly can you determine whether the utilization on your primary cards affected any mortgage scores? There's no doubt that you have to place a small balance on your AU to avoid the AZ point loss, but now we're trying to determine whether the accounts are also excluded from utilization as well as Revolving activity/balances. TIA. 


@Birdman7  Do you still need data or did you get what you need from @Thomas_Thumb ?

Message 43 of 79
Birdman7
Super Contributor

Re: question about high credit lines excluded from FICO8 scoring

TT cleared it up for me. I was trying to theorize a way to resolve SJ‘s data points and began to theorizing the wrong way relying on inaccurate data points from years ago regarding the cut off range.

Now we know the proper range and the initial information about it being excluded from balances and utilization appears to be accurate. Many thanks to TT for his knowledge wisdom and taking the time to enlighten us and correct us.
-Our Community’s updated scoring wisdom: Link to Scoring Primer.
-For Negative Reason Codes see: CassieCard’s Score Factors thread.
-ccquest’s workbook to calculate metrics for you: Link to Workbook.

Correct Ag.Util. under 5% all times. (Oldest/avg varies. Estimates above.)
Real world mortgage maxes are: EQ5-818, TU4-839, EX2-844.

RIP:

(Everything said is JMHO and is not endorsed by FICO or MF. I have no affiliation with either, just a grateful member.)
Message 44 of 79
Aim_High
Senior Contributor

Re: question about high credit lines excluded from FICO8 scoring

Well, I was going to start a new thread asking my question, but this one is so similar I decided to post it here.  I'm no scoring expert on the technicalities, so much of this discussion went over my head. But my question involved FICO impacts on very high credit limits. 

 

I'm actually shocked at discussions that limits in the $25K to $35K range can start to reach exclusionary levels in some scoring models, although it appears they are the older models when limits were typically lower.  It's a little disconcerting, to be honest.  I had heard that limits of around $50K and perhaps $100K were sometimes excluded from utilization calculations and could impact FICO scoring but never imagined it could dip so low. 

 

Specifically, I've seen several approvals or limit consolidations in the range of $50K to $100K+ in the recent months.  I've considered doing some consolidation of limits and wanted to be knowledgable of the potential fallout from doing it.   If calculations are affected as low as $35K, I may already have more of a problem developing than I even knew, but so far my FICO 8/9 and Bankcard 8/9 scores seem intact, as reported by my lenders. 

 

My current highest limits are BofA Cash Rewards $81.9K, Chase Sapphire Reserve $55K, Discover $50K, PenFed PCR $41.7K, Citi Costco $36K, and USAA $35K.   And I have one charge card, the AMEX Gold.  So, seven out of my current 20 cards are either NPSL or at/above $35K.  I was looking at rearranging Chase and/or Bank of America limits.   My TCL with Chase is $138.4 and TCL with BofA is $99.9.   

 

I like higher limits and less complexity.  Rewards are good, but I'm not one to go to extremes with rewards optimization.  So my long-term objective was a fairly select group of cards with higher limits, mostly starting at a bare minimum of $25K and hopefully adding  several more than I currently have at $50K+.  So having 12-15 cards would be more than enough. 

 

My current $10K-ish limit cards were planned to be used for limit consolidation (Chase Marriott, Chase Hyatt, Wells Fargo Cash Wise.)  My only sub-$10K card is my Chase INK which doesn't report on my personal credit and sits at $9K.  Now, I'm wondering if this is a strategy that could cause complications.  Even if I open or consolidate some cards into higher-limit accounts, should I purposefully keep open and active a certain portion of my cards at lower limits?  Is there one or more credit-limit triggers that impact utilization or FICO that I should be aware of?   

 

Comments, @Birdman7, @Thomas_Thumb, @tacpoly

Also tags to other forum high-limit experts:  @coldfusion and @FinStar






Total Length of Credit > 35 years; AoOA (Currently open accounts) > 27 years
AAoA > 7 years; AoYA less than 1 year (Aug 2020)
Credit Limits: Total > $573K. Average > $28K. Utilization 1%.
Total Inquiries (TU:3 ~ EQ:4 ~ EX:7); Scorable Inquiries (TU:1 ~ EQ:2 ~ EX:4)
New Accounts: 1/6 months; 4/12 months; 11/24 months (as of 01/11/21)
* Hover cursor over each card to see name & CL, or press & hold on mobile app.
** Gardening since 08/15/20. Garden Goal ACHIEVED!!: Gold Spade on 02/15/21
Message 45 of 79
NoHardLimits
Regular Contributor

Re: question about high credit lines excluded from FICO8 scoring


@Aim_High wrote:

Well, I was going to start a new thread asking my question, but this one is so similar I decided to post it here.  I'm no scoring expert on the technicalities, so much of this discussion went over my head. But my question involved FICO impacts on very high credit limits. 

 

I'm actually shocked at discussions that limits in the $25K to $35K range can start to reach exclusionary levels in some scoring models, although it appears they are the older models when limits were typically lower.  It's a little disconcerting, to be honest.  I had heard that limits of around $50K and perhaps $100K were sometimes excluded from utilization calculations and could impact FICO scoring but never imagined it could dip so low. 

 

Specifically, I've seen several approvals or limit consolidations in the range of $50K to $100K+ in the recent months.  I've considered doing some consolidation of limits and wanted to be knowledgable of the potential fallout from doing it.   If calculations are affected as low as $35K, I may already have more of a problem developing than I even knew, but so far my FICO 8/9 and Bankcard 8/9 scores seem intact, as reported by my lenders. 

 

My current highest limits are BofA Cash Rewards $81.9K, Chase Sapphire Reserve $55K, Discover $50K, PenFed PCR $41.7K, Citi Costco $36K, and USAA $35K.   And I have one charge card, the AMEX Gold.  So, seven out of my current 20 cards are either NPSL or at/above $35K.  I was looking at rearranging Chase and/or Bank of America limits.   My TCL with Chase is $138.4 and TCL with BofA is $99.9.   

 

I like higher limits and less complexity.  Rewards are good, but I'm not one to go to extremes with rewards optimization.  So my long-term objective was a fairly select group of cards with higher limits, mostly starting at a bare minimum of $25K and hopefully adding  several more than I currently have at $50K+.  So having 12-15 cards would be more than enough. 

 

My current $10K-ish limit cards were planned to be used for limit consolidation (Chase Marriott, Chase Hyatt, Wells Fargo Cash Wise.)  My only sub-$10K card is my Chase INK which doesn't report on my personal credit and sits at $9K.  Now, I'm wondering if this is a strategy that could cause complications.  Even if I open or consolidate some cards into higher-limit accounts, should I purposefully keep open and active a certain portion of my cards at lower limits?  Is there one or more credit-limit triggers that impact utilization or FICO that I should be aware of?   

 

Comments, @Birdman7, @Thomas_Thumb, @tacpoly

Also tags to other forum high-limit experts:  @coldfusion and @FinStar


I'm very interested in reading the responses to your questions as I have been wondering about the same things.  I have deliberately kept all of my individual card limits well below $50k "just in case" and cast off many $k's of CL in the process.

February 2021 Snapshot -

FICO8:
VantageScore3:
Inquiries:
New Accounts: 2/24, 1/12, 1/6
AAoA: 10 years
AoOA=AoORA: 33 years
AoYA=AoYRA: less than 1 year



Total Credit Card Limits: $375k (includes $42k AU and $32k business)
Utilization: less than 1%

Installment Loans: none open
(all mortgages, auto loans, and student loans FINALLY paid off, though 5 closed tradelines are still reporting)
Message 46 of 79
tacpoly
Established Contributor

Re: question about high credit lines excluded from FICO8 scoring


@Thomas_Thumb wrote:

 

1a) My $34,900 AU card does not count on Fico 98 (Experian score 2) but does count on Fico 04 (Experian score 3), (TransUnion score 4) and (Equifax score 5).

* On multiple occassions my EX score 2 has actually gone up slightly when my EX score 3, TU score 4 and EQ score 5 results dropped substantially due to a high monthly balance reporting on the AU card. [side note: my Fico 8 scores were unaffected - AU card not counting due to anti abuse algorithm)

* On one occassion when only my AU and AMEX charge reported balances, my EQ/TU/EX Fico 8 scores dropped as did my EX Fico score 2. My EX Fico score 3, TU Fico score 4 and EQ Fico score 5 did not drop. Why? I experienced the "zero revolvers with a balance penalty".

 

The AU card CL of $34.9k is above the Fico 98 model limit for factoring into utilization and card count. The AMEX charge card is not a revolver. Thus, the zero revolving account activity penalty even though 2 cards had balances.

 

I have multiple data points that show the older Fico 98 model ignores a revolving credit card that has a CL of $34.9k. However, that same card is "seen" and included in Fico 04 revolving account metrics (EX score 3, TU score 4 and EQ score 5). I also have a Discover card with a $31k CL. Best I can tell is that account is considered in all Fico model metrics (Fico 98, Fico 04, Fico 8 and Fico 9)

 

In conclusion, Fico 98 does not consider revolving accounts with credit limits of $34.9 or higher in utilization and revolving account with balance metrics. Best I can tell the cutoff should fall between $31k and $34.9k.

 

Although I have never had a PLOC or HELOC, there have been a multitude of posts and threads speaking to Line of credit amount limits above which the account no longer is viewed as a revolver. These threads are generally pre 2014 when the focus was primarily Fico mortgage scores (Fico 98 and Fico 04). The limit was somewhere in the $20k to $50k range.


As I'm not versed in the various (current and historical) Fico scoring models, I've gotten mixed up with the terminology used here and in the 3B report, so would you be kind enough to clarify, @Thomas_Thumb?  When you wrote "Fico 98 (Experian score 2)" are you saying that the Fico 98 model is used in EX2?  Similarly, the Fico 4 model is used in EQ5, TU4, EX3?  And that all these are/were used for mortgage. 

The Fico 3B report lumps together "FICO SCORE 5, 4 & 2" and explains that "they are widely used in mortgage lending".  Do these then correspond to Equifax score 5 (Fico4 model), TU4 (Fico4), and EX2 (Fico 98)?  

The 3B report also has a "FICO SCORE 3" with only Experian scores available. Does this then correspond to EX3 (Fico4)?  The 3B report, however, notes that this score is "commonly used in credit card lending" not mortgages. 

 

Message 47 of 79
Thomas_Thumb
Senior Contributor

Re: question about high credit lines excluded from FICO8 scoring

Your recap is basically correct. The "mortgage Ficos" are actually Classic Fico versions that happen to be used by mortgage lenders.

 

For mortgage loans the base algorithm used is Fico 04 for EQ and TU. The base algorithm used for EX is Fico 98.

 

EX score 3 uses Fico 04. Best I can tell it is not used for anything. The score presented is a Classic model with range of 300 to 850. Unfortunately Fico incorrectly lumps EX score 3 in with the Bankcard enhanced versions that have a nominal 250 to 900 range.

 

All CRAs have Fico 98 but only EX Fico 98 is stillused by lenders.

 

Starting with Fico 8 all CRAs began following a standard nomenclature such as score 8 for Fico 8 and score 9 for Fico 9. Before that the CRA score number designation did not correlate with the Fico version #.

Fico 9: .......EQ 850 TU 850 EX 850
Fico 8: .......EQ 850 TU 850 EX 850
Fico 4 .....:. EQ 809 TU 823 EX 830 EX Fico 98: 842
Fico 8 BC:. EQ 892 TU 900 EX 900
Fico 8 AU:. EQ 887 TU 897 EX 899
Fico 4 BC:. EQ 826 TU 858, EX Fico 98 BC: 870
Fico 4 AU:. EQ 831 TU 872, EX Fico 98 AU: 861
VS 3.0:...... EQ 835 TU 835 EX 835
CBIS: ........EQ LN Auto 940 EQ LN Home 870 TU Auto 902 TU Home 950
Message 48 of 79
tacpoly
Established Contributor

Re: question about high credit lines excluded from FICO8 scoring


@Aim_High wrote:

Well, I was going to start a new thread asking my question, but this one is so similar I decided to post it here.  I'm no scoring expert on the technicalities, so much of this discussion went over my head. But my question involved FICO impacts on very high credit limits. 

 

I'm actually shocked at discussions that limits in the $25K to $35K range can start to reach exclusionary levels in some scoring models, although it appears they are the older models when limits were typically lower.  It's a little disconcerting, to be honest.  I had heard that limits of around $50K and perhaps $100K were sometimes excluded from utilization calculations and could impact FICO scoring but never imagined it could dip so low. 

 

Specifically, I've seen several approvals or limit consolidations in the range of $50K to $100K+ in the recent months.  I've considered doing some consolidation of limits and wanted to be knowledgable of the potential fallout from doing it.   If calculations are affected as low as $35K, I may already have more of a problem developing than I even knew, but so far my FICO 8/9 and Bankcard 8/9 scores seem intact, as reported by my lenders. 

 

My current highest limits are BofA Cash Rewards $81.9K, Chase Sapphire Reserve $55K, Discover $50K, PenFed PCR $41.7K, Citi Costco $36K, and USAA $35K.   And I have one charge card, the AMEX Gold.  So, seven out of my current 20 cards are either NPSL or at/above $35K.  I was looking at rearranging Chase and/or Bank of America limits.   My TCL with Chase is $138.4 and TCL with BofA is $99.9.   

 

I like higher limits and less complexity.  Rewards are good, but I'm not one to go to extremes with rewards optimization.  So my long-term objective was a fairly select group of cards with higher limits, mostly starting at a bare minimum of $25K and hopefully adding  several more than I currently have at $50K+.  So having 12-15 cards would be more than enough. 

 

My current $10K-ish limit cards were planned to be used for limit consolidation (Chase Marriott, Chase Hyatt, Wells Fargo Cash Wise.)  My only sub-$10K card is my Chase INK which doesn't report on my personal credit and sits at $9K.  Now, I'm wondering if this is a strategy that could cause complications.  Even if I open or consolidate some cards into higher-limit accounts, should I purposefully keep open and active a certain portion of my cards at lower limits?  Is there one or more credit-limit triggers that impact utilization or FICO that I should be aware of?   

 

Comments, @Birdman7, @Thomas_Thumb, @tacpoly

Also tags to other forum high-limit experts:  @coldfusion and @FinStar


From what I understand from this thread (and feel free to correct me):

- Fico8 and Fico 9 considers all revolving primary cards, no matter the limit, when it comes to utilization and revolving account balances. AU and charge cards are not considered. 


- Fico 98 scoring considers only cards below a certain limit (currently narrowed to somewhere between 31K and 34.9K) when it comes to utilization and balance. 

- Fico mortgage scoring sees charge cards and revolving cards (primary and AU) up to a CL of $34.9 and maybe higher.  Although it seems to be insensitive to my $45K limit revolver. 

- All accounts count with regard to # of accounts with balances for all scoring models (is this right?)

 

So, it seems if you're not going to do anything that would require institutions to look at your mortgage scores, having all high limit cards probably won't hurt. If you want to be safe, keep 2 cards below $35K.  I've always had high limit cards (my first credit limits when I applied for cards after I turned 18 were all well above $50K).  Although I didn't know my scores until recently, I never had an issue getting a loan or credit cards (I did lower limits after identity theft and fraudulent charges). 

Message 49 of 79
Birdman7
Super Contributor

Re: question about high credit lines excluded from FICO8 scoring


@tacpoly wrote:

@Aim_High wrote:

Well, I was going to start a new thread asking my question, but this one is so similar I decided to post it here.  I'm no scoring expert on the technicalities, so much of this discussion went over my head. But my question involved FICO impacts on very high credit limits. 

 

I'm actually shocked at discussions that limits in the $25K to $35K range can start to reach exclusionary levels in some scoring models, although it appears they are the older models when limits were typically lower.  It's a little disconcerting, to be honest.  I had heard that limits of around $50K and perhaps $100K were sometimes excluded from utilization calculations and could impact FICO scoring but never imagined it could dip so low. 

 

Specifically, I've seen several approvals or limit consolidations in the range of $50K to $100K+ in the recent months.  I've considered doing some consolidation of limits and wanted to be knowledgable of the potential fallout from doing it.   If calculations are affected as low as $35K, I may already have more of a problem developing than I even knew, but so far my FICO 8/9 and Bankcard 8/9 scores seem intact, as reported by my lenders. 

 

My current highest limits are BofA Cash Rewards $81.9K, Chase Sapphire Reserve $55K, Discover $50K, PenFed PCR $41.7K, Citi Costco $36K, and USAA $35K.   And I have one charge card, the AMEX Gold.  So, seven out of my current 20 cards are either NPSL or at/above $35K.  I was looking at rearranging Chase and/or Bank of America limits.   My TCL with Chase is $138.4 and TCL with BofA is $99.9.   

 

I like higher limits and less complexity.  Rewards are good, but I'm not one to go to extremes with rewards optimization.  So my long-term objective was a fairly select group of cards with higher limits, mostly starting at a bare minimum of $25K and hopefully adding  several more than I currently have at $50K+.  So having 12-15 cards would be more than enough. 

 

My current $10K-ish limit cards were planned to be used for limit consolidation (Chase Marriott, Chase Hyatt, Wells Fargo Cash Wise.)  My only sub-$10K card is my Chase INK which doesn't report on my personal credit and sits at $9K.  Now, I'm wondering if this is a strategy that could cause complications.  Even if I open or consolidate some cards into higher-limit accounts, should I purposefully keep open and active a certain portion of my cards at lower limits?  Is there one or more credit-limit triggers that impact utilization or FICO that I should be aware of?   

 

Comments, @Birdman7, @Thomas_Thumb, @tacpoly

Also tags to other forum high-limit experts:  @coldfusion and @FinStar


From what I understand from this thread (and feel free to correct me):

- Fico8 and Fico 9 considers all revolving primary cards, no matter the limit, when it comes to utilization and revolving account balances. AU and charge cards are not considered. 


- Fico 98 scoring considers only cards below a certain limit (currently narrowed to somewhere between 31K and 34.9K) when it comes to utilization and balance. 

- Fico mortgage scoring sees charge cards and revolving cards (primary and AU) up to a CL of $34.9 and maybe higher.  Although it seems to be insensitive to my $45K limit revolver. 

- All accounts count with regard to # of accounts with balances for all scoring models (is this right?)

 

So, it seems if you're not going to do anything that would require institutions to look at your mortgage scores, having all high limit cards probably won't hurt. If you want to be safe, keep 2 cards below $35K.  I've always had high limit cards (my first credit limits when I applied for cards after I turned 18 were all well above $50K).  Although I didn't know my scores until recently, I never had an issue getting a loan or credit cards (I did lower limits after identity theft and fraudulent charges). 


@tacpoly almost. 

 

For versions 8 and 9, charge card utilization is not considered and there is no known cut off range. However authorized user utilization may or may not be considered, depending on the anti-abuse algorithm, which excludes suspicious authorized user accounts. This began with version 8.


Fico 98 (EX2) is a mortgage score and considers all accounts, primary and authorized user. It disregards the utilization and balances of revolvers with a CL of somewhere over $31,000 yet below $34,900. Chargecard utilization is considered in a separate special H/HB Metric. This is the only algorithm that appears to take it into account. The corresponding versions from EQ & TU are not in use.

 

Fico 04 (scores 3, 4, & 5) EX3 is not used by many. TU4 & EQ5 are mortgage scores and fully count both primary and authorized user accounts. chargecard utilization is not considered, nor is any revolver with a CL of $35,000 or higher. 

all open accounts with a balance count as an account with a balance on all models.

 

@Aim_High To be honest, all you need is one revolver with a credit limit of $31,000 or less to use as an AZEO card to avoid the

AZ loss on all 3 mortgage scores.

 

If you're extra paranoid have 2, but if you really got in a pinch, you could always request a CLD, you know if your only sub $50,000 account was a Sam's M/C and Synchrony pulled one of their specials. 😉

 

Really @tacpoly has a beautiful profile, everything is large except for the one AU that will now work perfectly to avoid the AZ loss on all three bureaus. As a matter of fact, have you posted a balance yet to see how high your scores jump @tacpoly ?

 

But seriously @Aim_High, it's great you're utilization is hid with big cards, your only issue is you need one low limit card just to show revolving activity, so you don't get the point loss from all zero.

 

So really, all you need is one revolver that is $31,000 or less CL, just one. As a matter fact, I recall you *%@&$#!£? about one lower CL you got somewhere at the end of your run somewhere, right? Well turn that frown upside down and make that you're AZEO card! You need one lower limit card, it serves it's AZEO purpose. Other than that, don't expend any more brain cells on it, lol😉

-Our Community’s updated scoring wisdom: Link to Scoring Primer.
-For Negative Reason Codes see: CassieCard’s Score Factors thread.
-ccquest’s workbook to calculate metrics for you: Link to Workbook.

Correct Ag.Util. under 5% all times. (Oldest/avg varies. Estimates above.)
Real world mortgage maxes are: EQ5-818, TU4-839, EX2-844.

RIP:

(Everything said is JMHO and is not endorsed by FICO or MF. I have no affiliation with either, just a grateful member.)
Message 50 of 79
Advertiser Disclosure: The offers that appear on this site are from third party advertisers from whom FICO receives compensation.