AMEX still won't forgive since 2011.

[Janneman]

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@JimmiS wrote:

I had a 18k chargoff of an AMEX Optima card in 2011. The collection deparment said they can't take my money. The fraud department didn't know what to do either. Yet they feel it should have been wiped off long ago.

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You are talking that Amex still has not forgiven you since 2011 then you must be kidding or not have done enough homework to know that many people are still waiting to be forgiven for 30+ years, including my father who charged on Optima card in 1993...So, we are talking over here 33 years, and you are just talking about since 2011 !!!!....

Those who included their debt with Amex on their bankruptcy case AND those who paid back their debt back to Amex either thru installments or payment plans/ payment settlement then those people do get back with Amex after a certain years....But its extremely very hard to ever get back for those who either never paid back nor their debt ever got discharged thru bankruptcy, instead their debts/accounts were just charged off. And those who accumulated their debt with Amex thru fraud then those people will NEVER be able to get back regardless of even 100 years. Accumulating debt thru fraud means sending bad checks as payment to Amex and on the other hand charged the amex card again as it used to be in past in early 90s....

Further, it also depends the amount of loss to Amex. If it was substantial then Amex might not ever let you back either. And, one needs to also know that the people who work for Amex don't even know much about their system or their algorithms. They are either new or just work for customer service not knowing all these details, including those work for their collection dept and their fraud dept. Amex system is set up in mid 80s and only their tech people know all these and a very few people. So, talking with fraud and collection dept won't do any good as you will never get correct information. Just because debt was from a very long time ago or it was wiped out from credit reports then that doesn't mean its ok now or its out of Amex system. Nobody would change any setting in Amex system to forgive you. Its their algorithm as to whether to forgive you or not, or if system would allow you back then only system would know when.

Charged off and negative accounts used to be dropped off from credit reports after 7 years of their last reporting date, but that changed 15 years ago and became 10 years. Further, Amex can not legally collect the money from you because of Statue of Limitations which depends on which State do you live in, typically 7-8 years at most unless a civil judgement was already taken by Amex then it would be valid maximum 10-20 years depending upon where you live in. 

If I were you, then forget about Amex and move on to other cards as you might never be able to get back with Amex if you made them loose more than $13k and never included debt in bankruptcy or paid back to Amex...Your chance to get back with them is 1 out one million, that I can assure you since I have done extensive research on this matter for the last 20+ years. Good luck...

[E36]

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@Janneman wrote:Charged off and negative accounts used to be dropped off from credit reports after 7 years of their last reporting date, but that changed 15 years ago and became 10 years.

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Currently,

Charged off accounts fall off report after 7 years (not 10) after DOFD (Date of First Deliquency) not last reporting. Experian and Transunion give an ETA. Equifax reports DOFD (and you can calculate ETA)

Chapter 7 Bankruptcy stays on the report for 10 years after Date of Filing.

Closed accounts in good standing (Paid as agreed) stay on the report 10 years after closure.

[AndySoCal]

@E36  I have had  a credit card closed and paid . This was a store card and store closed in 2008-2009 the card finally fell Equifax in late 2024 the other 2 bureaus years before that.  The question becomes why should a creditor give a consumer a second chance ? You can break that in two broad groups a consumer has an account(s) that becomes a charge off and or later is included in a bankruptcy. The creditor lost money. The second group is a consumer has an account that goes bad collection or charge off. Later the consumer repays the account in full.

Now for Capital One will take almost any consumer but they have strict rules for consumers with bad or very bad credit.

I can make case for the consumer in the second group after a period time. The period of time is needed to see if the consumer has changed how  thecconsumer manages credit. Ie paying in full each month or carrying balances each month where the account never goes to a zero balance.

[E36]

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@AndySoCal wrote:

 I have had  a credit card closed and paid . This was a store card and store closed in 2008-2009 the card finally fell Equifax in late 2024 the other 2 bureaus years before that.  

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I have three data points of accounts that all closed in good standing (no late or missing payment, zero balance at time of closing)

The following is based on Experian:

• I closed Amex Platinum (originally Gold) in 2012. It was no longer on my Experian report on July 2023 (This is my oldest credit report, so I can't go back to see the last time Amex reported this card) (~10 year)
• I made my last payment for a Bank Loan in November 2013. It last reported to Experian in December 2013. It no longer showed up on my report in January 2013. (~10 year)
• I made my last payment to Auto Loan in November 2015. It last reported to Experian in November 2015. It no longer showed up on my report in December 2015. (~10 year)

Currently I have a BoFA Card I closed in good standing in 2017 that is reporting. We'll see if it will fall of next year (10 years)

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@AndySoCal wrote:

 The question becomes why should a creditor give a consumer a second chance ? 

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I agree. A consumer is not entitled to a second chance.

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@AndySoCal wrote:

 You can break that in two broad groups a consumer has an account(s) that becomes a charge off and or later is included in a bankruptcy. The creditor lost money.

The second group is a consumer has an account that goes bad collection or charge off. Later the consumer repays the account in full.

I can make case for the consumer in the second group after a period time. The period of time is needed to see if the consumer has changed how  thecconsumer manages credit. Ie paying in full each month or carrying balances each month where the account never goes to a zero balance.

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I agree. I can make a case that creditors can make money on a consumer even if they charge off. 

• Consumer has $10K balance at 20% APR and makes minimum payment.
• Continues spend so maintains $10K balance
• Consumer is paying ~$2K interest each year. (And I'm being generouse with 20% APR)
• After 5 years, Customer has paid $10K in interest
• Creditor makes interchange fees
• Creditor sells debt to collections at a fraction of balance
• or Creditor settles with consumer (Paid in Full (can negotiate to stop interest and start installment plans or just pay one time), Percentage of balance (which may include fees and interest)

Every person is different. So it really depends on each individual.

Bottom line is risk assessment, the creditors balance sheets, their investors (assets based securities), etc. I don't have a finance major nor do I understand the complexities of modern banking and how it's evolved from traditional fractional reserve lending.

My guess is the following factors

• Internal Score
• Relationship, other Products (that make bank money)
• Income, Source of Income, History
• Exposure, spending and credit behavior
• Credit Card Portfolio
• Balance Sheets

Here is the 2024 numbers of Credit Card portfolio:

	Prime %	Subprime %
JP Morgan Chase	86	14
US Bank	86	14
Citigroup	84	16
Bank of America	83	17
Discover	80	20
Wells Fargo	80	20
Capital One	68	32
Navy Federal CU	59	41

Chase and Amex have long memories.

Amex markets itself as a lifestyle card for consumers, so they are at a premium. They currently offer one personal  (non-cobranded) card with $0 AF. Their target demo is not subprime. Amex does NOT offer secured card.

Chase Sapphire is from 2009, the Reserve is 2016. So while they've entered the premium space. They operate like most of the big traditional banks, with other product offerings (banking, mortgage, investor brokerage, etc.)

Of the traditional banks (risk adverse)

Chase & Wells don't offer secured cards.

Citi, BofA, US Bank, offer secured cards* 
*still have a chance of being denied

Secured cards mitigate risk.


As for CapitalOne, they are data-driven and (risk tolerant), they were aggresive in the 1990s in loosening their requirements for more risky profiles (subprime). They did this algorithmically. They scaled CLs accordingly. They pioneered "data-driven" strategy. As such, they have a higher ratio of subprime cards than traditional banks. They look at total exposure and habits. It's also why they don't just give high SL cards or CLI based on high income and credit score. Everything is for increasing profit, and lowering risk.

Then there are subprime focused creditors. They extract as much money they can get from the consumer with annual or monthly fees, interest on pruchases from day one, they give low credit limits. All of this mitigates risk. Even if they default, the creditors made their moneys worth and sells off the debt to a colelctor.

[Janneman]

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@E36 wrote:

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@Janneman wrote:Charged off and negative accounts used to be dropped off from credit reports after 7 years of their last reporting date, but that changed 15 years ago and became 10 years.

---

Currently,

Charged off accounts fall off report after 7 years (not 10) after DOFD (Date of First Deliquency) not last reporting. Experian and Transunion give an ETA. Equifax reports DOFD (and you can calculate ETA)

Chapter 7 Bankruptcy stays on the report for 10 years after Date of Filing.

Closed accounts in good standing (Paid as agreed) stay on the report 10 years after closure.

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You are correct....I might have been confused with Bankruptcy Chapter 7 or something else which did change 20+ years back from 7 years to 10 years....

[Pppoolboy]

No biggie, just check Amex preapprovals every 6 months until they let you back in.  In the meantime, there are lots of cards out there.  Why would you want a bank that doesn't want you?

Back in 2000 my SSN was stolen and the criminal burned Amex (and other banks), as me, for nearly $20,000.  The dude had the cards sent to a completely different part of the country, addressed to someone with a completely different name, who maxed out the cards in two weeks.  This was back before there were many fraud protections.

All other banks wiped the debts from my record shortly after I sent them police reports.  Amex did not.  Despite it being obviously ID fraud, Amex wouldn't let me have another card until 2023. 

[AndySoCal]

@E36  IMO Many consumers who need to rebuild their credit would be better off at a local credit union.  Credit unions are for the members of the credit union. Banks are for the shareholders aka Wall Street most of the time. 
Lenders do not make money on accounts that go bad.  There are too many expenses related to the account that has gone bad for the lender to make any money. The pattern is a long one of two lines. The consumer goes 30 days late brings it back to current this may happen more than once. Eventually the account goes late from which it never recovers.  The second pattern is the account current and goes derogatory from which the never becomes current.  Then you have the consumer that is treading water they are carrying balances month over month. Then the unexpected happens job or loss of income and or an unepected expense. Either one or both will sink the consumer.  

[E36]

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@AndySoCal wrote:

@E36  IMO Many consumers who need to rebuild their credit would be better off at a local credit union.  Credit unions are for the members of the credit union. Banks are for the shareholders aka Wall Street most of the time. 

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I agree. But YMMV with different credit unions. Not all of them are the same. I personally bank with my local credit union. It is also the only credit union that is in the two US cities I frequent (There is no major bank in Hawaii). When I had my business I also banked at two regional banks in Hawaii. Credit Unions are favorable, but man some CUs UI and other things are behind the times. My credit union sends me cards with printed numbers that makes it look like a fake card. If I still had my retail store, I would keep my business banking at the regional banks that was closest to my location. More locations, dedicated business teller, better hours, etc.

People always say credit unions are better for rebuild.
My question is which one? Are they all the same?
So far, I've seen great things about NavyFed and Skyla (NC & SC, but not geolocked).

When it comes to rebuild, it may take a secured card. Different credit unions have different limits. Different credit unions have different graduation dates. And all this can have a different effect on Credit Utilization. 

During my rebuild, I got my first unsecured card in December 2023. In 10 months, my TCL was $9,800. Ally + CapitalOne + Avant + Synchrony/Venmo. I did that without making a deposit. At $9,800, If you report a balance of $400, thats 4.1% TCL Utilization. If that was on a $2000 card, its 20%. $1000, 41% and $500, 82%.

In July 2023, my Experiean credit score was 508. In one year, I was at 640.

Would this be possible at a credit union? Absolutely. The question is which one. Some graduate in 6 months. Some in a year. Some are generous with CLI. Some are not. And that's one card. Watching another person's journey, they started with a secured card that graduated, their Credit union CC CL is $3K. Their Capital One CC CL total is $7K. That person has $10K TCL.

So what could they do sticking with CU cards? That person would only have $3K.
If that person applied to another credit union for another CC, ther probably would have still required a deposit.

If I pay in full with $0 Balance. Whats the difference between Bank CCs and Credit Unions CCs?

Anyways would love to here your recommendations with CC that is not geolocked, that is risk tolerant, that gives good CLIs, and if secured guarantees a graduation date of 1 year or less with ontime payments. Which CU's offer prequals?

(As mentioned earlier I'm only familiary with NavyFed, and learned recently about Skyla)

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@AndySoCal wrote:

@E36  
Lenders do not make money on accounts that go bad.  There are too many expenses related to the account that has gone bad for the lender to make any money. 

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You are right.

[youngandcreditwrthy]

wow this is longer than my continuing denials and please know that ifyou apply even with a soft pull and get denied LOL.. that now gives them authority to call you and collect lol. Theyve been hounding me over a few hundred dollars that my pride got in the way of and 11+ years later, they still deny me and are now calling LOL. Pound sound. Too many co branded Amexes out there that still give you access to wonderful Amex offers. 

[youngandcreditwrthy]

@Janneman  I think Amex is far more keen on BK folks than Charge Off folks too it seems, they get forgiven more quickly. 

Amex is known for having the lowest default rate on their CC division in the industry like around 1% (or was a few years ago lol ) and I suppose there's a reason.