View of Chase from the Garden

[Anonymous]

First off, I'm just a common guy.  I'm middle aged, travel lot for work domestically. Rarely travel international (personal or work).  I'm in the Garden because I have reached a plateau in my credit rebuild.  2019 graced me with approvals for AmEx Hilton Aspire and CSP, my first taste of premium cards.  Before that I had Cap1 VentureOne, Cap1 QS, Cap1QS1 (buckected old HSBC with AF) and Freedom.  I've got one derog that isn't aging, so I'm waiting on it to reach SOL so it can fall off at some point or try to settled it.  Scores in the low 600s (ut 78%).  So I'm not a super hobbiest working the system to the maxium.  I aspire to be.

I wanted to get deep into the UR ecosystem: add CFU upgrade to CSR.  I currently send all my monthly fixed expenses (<12k) to Cap1 QS. Daily spend usually goes on Cap1 or CSP.  Since I travel for work, most meals and hotels go on corporate card but extra bar/restaurant spend goes on personal. My goal is to pay down ut to < 28.99% and replace Cap1 QS spend with CFU.  Then upgrade to CSR and maximize the portal and transfers.  I just finished reading the CSR AF $550 thread and now I'm kinda scratching my head.  I've spent the last 5 years building a relationship with Chase (cc, bank account) but I also kinda wanted to play in the MR pool.  Right now, I have everything I need:

AmEx Hilton Aspire

-Hilton Diamond Status

-PP lounge membership

-various Hilton and airline credits

-insurance benefits

CSP

-1.25x UR entry into travel portal

-transfer to airline partners (I live between United hub and Delta hub airports but my local airport has American & United direct flights to some destinations)

-insurance benefits

I guess my concern is, once I leave the garden, should I continue on my path to UR eco system, try out the MR pool or stand pat?  I feel like I'm sitting on the sidelines wanting the coach to put me in before the game is over.

[Aim_High]

Congrats on your progress with your rebuild. 

The dilemma with diversifying between different point pools (UR-MR-TY etc) is that you are potentially diluting the redemption benefits multiple ways.  Depending on your spending, you may be better off commiting to a single system.  You also admit that "Right now, I have everything I need ..."   Which card is the "corporate card" you referenced, or is it a separate account?  Do you get to earn/keep the points accumulated on it or does your company allow that?   Regular business spend where you get to keep the points can change the dynamic.

From what I've read, MR points are at their maximum values usually when redeemed by transfer to airline partners for cabin upgrades on international airfare.  If you rarely travel international or don't consolidate frequent-flier points with one airline, and also depending on how you choose to redeem MR or UR points, you might be as well or better off by sticking to UR points.  You don't sound airline-loyal.  I also don't have travel partners or routine international travel, which is one reason I thought redeeming UR points @ 1.5x value through Chase portal on my CSR card made the most sense.  It's not the absolute highest potential value but its simple, no-fuss, and earns me a better return on my travel and dining-out than simple cash-back options.  I still think so, even with the rise in AF because of the overall value I get through the quadfecta cards (CSR-CF-CFU-INK) and consolidating my UR points.  Your situation might be different. 

[Anonymous]

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Thanks for the reply @Aim_High, the corporate card is a Citi card that is from my employer.  The points I accumulate are basically from stays/nights/flights/rental car with my various hotel/airline/Hertz accounts.  You are correct, I am not airline loyal.  I may not even be Hilton loyal since I get Diamond status via Aspire.  Currently, I am trying to rack up Bonvoy nights traveling for work.  I was granted Platinum status with the transfer to Bonvoy and am trying to retain it.  I guess my real dilema is should I upgrade to CSR and get CFU?  Will moving my spend from Cap1 to CFU make much of an impact?  To clarify that <12K is a yearly value; monthly its around $980.  I also have a budget of gas & grocery around $400/month but work travel reduces it greatly.  I generally use this for slush/disposable in the form of restaurant and bars.  I am trying to use it for debt paydown but my will power varies.  I wanted to amass cards so that I could try out some different perks but AF on multiple cards is a concern and I don't know that 1.25 vs 1.5 UR travel portal will justify CSP -> CSR.  

[Citylights18]

The way I look at it Citi, AMEX and Chase are about all the same. Over the longer haul it's more about total points than anything else.

Earning points here and there in different currencies is okay. I've done online shopping through the AA and BA portals and within the past year have earned 1 flight in each currency. The point here is it doesn't take that much earning to scalp which is what the point system is for.

Forget the idea of points covering the full freight of a vacation. The best you are going to do is cover a couple flights and score a free night out of it. Therefore there isnt much advantage in concentrating in one currency if you are going to play the game for over one year.

In the short run however it might make sense to pick up one ecosystem at a time and blow through their points. Once you get low it's time to roll in the next ecosystem.

So I'm just staying in UR for the time being only because I have so many points due to bonuses.

[randomguy1]

Chase works for me so I am in the boat to get all the SUBs before breaking out of 5/24. Since I have a business, I have quite a few SUBs to hit before I can be out of 5/24. 

So from my perspective, go Chase first while you can as the bonuses are quite good and you can get MR at a later time. 

CSR

CIP

CIC

CIU

CF

WOH  - free yearly night 

AMEX is not nearly concerned with velocity and inquiries as Chase if you have a decent file. 

[Aim_High]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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Thanks for the reply @Aim_High, the corporate card is a Citi card that is from my employer.  The points I accumulate are basically from stays/nights/flights/rental car with my various hotel/airline/Hertz accounts.  You are correct, I am not airline loyal.  I may not even be Hilton loyal since I get Diamond status via Aspire.  Currently, I am trying to rack up Bonvoy nights traveling for work.  I was granted Platinum status with the transfer to Bonvoy and am trying to retain it.  I guess my real dilema is should I upgrade to CSR and get CFU?  Will moving my spend from Cap1 to CFU make much of an impact?  To clarify that <12K is a yearly value; monthly its around $980.  I also have a budget of gas & grocery around $400/month but work travel reduces it greatly.  I generally use this for slush/disposable in the form of restaurant and bars.  I am trying to use it for debt paydown but my will power varies.  I wanted to amass cards so that I could try out some different perks but AF on multiple cards is a concern and I don't know that 1.25 vs 1.5 UR travel portal will justify CSP -> CSR.  

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You're welcome.  If you're earning CITI TY points already and also UR points, I don't personally really see the need (or the spend level) to branch out into MRs also, especially if you'd be adding AF cards to do so. It sounds like your employer-corporate-card locks in your business spend to the CITI ecosystem and that your personal spend by itself might not justify even one premium AF-travel card let alone more than that.  If you wanted to magnify it, I might use the corporate card for personal if that allowed or add personal CITI cards instead of having TY-UR-MR systems going all-at-once.  Unless you have a high level of spend, that's hard to justify. 

The difference in CSP and CSR is not as great as people think sometimes, although the $100 increase in AF shakes things up a little and whether it makes sense may depend on how much you value Lyft and DoorDash.  I did some back-of-the-envelope math and at your spend on QS (1.5%) versus getting potenially 2.25% UR on Freedom Unlimited with CSR,  you'd have about an extra $88 annually with Freedom Unlimited.  That helps justify CSR if you're leaning in that direction.  Do the math for yourself and see if you get enough value from an upgrade.  AF cards and especially higher AF cards like Amex Platinum, Citi Prestige, Chase Sapphire Reserve, and USB Altitude Reserve have a lot of perks but they don't make sense for everyone. 

Here is a message I wrote on comparing CSP to CSR back in July 2019 before the AF increase.   It might help you decide if you want to pursue a PC:

https://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Credit-Cards/Is-Chase-Sapphire-Preferred-credit-card-worth-it/m-p/5680886#M1655473

[Anonymous]

The Citi corporate card is a not a rewards card.  I don't see any TYP from that.  My only benefit from work travel is miles & points from air miles, hotel stays and rental car points. I do use uber often even when I'm at home (try not to drink & drive) and while traveling. So joining Lyft could help.  I've read the boards enough to know about the Hilton and Delta link. Also, use bitesquad so doordash may also be an option.  

Thanks for doing that quick math, I will run the numbers myself and see if there is value.  I guess I just wanted to have an AmEx (Gold or Plat) in my wallet for status but I'm quite happy with the AmEx Hilton even if it isn't being used for spend at the moment.  

[iced]

If you're not airline/hotel loyal, it's just going to come down to whatever system you like more (UR or MR) and stick with it. Neither is better than the other in all things, so usually the deciding factor is airline or hotel preference since that doesn't have so much overlap in the programs. There may be another factor that interests you more, and if so, go with that to decide which is best. There's no FOMO with a program if you haven't even decided how you plan to strategize point redemption.

The one thing I would say is to NOT base the value of the programs based on a blogger site like TPG - those valuations are useless at an individual level. People who dogmatically apply TPG (or other site) valuations to programs to try to calculate better value are still effectively guessing and just as likely to make an poor selection when they then subsequently try to shoehorn their travel patterns and redemptions to fit TPG's mold.

[iced]

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@Citylights18 wrote:

Forget the idea of points covering the full freight of a vacation. The best you are going to do is cover a couple flights and score a free night out of it. Therefore there isnt much advantage in concentrating in one currency if you are going to play the game for over one year.

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The first sentence is good advice, but not because you can't have the points for it. The reason I'd say not to do this is it's very, very rare where you'll have a single trip where you can get high return on value for both airfare and hotel with points. That is, I can find a good value on business tickets to Asia in March, but the Marriott choices at the destination are a poor return on Bonvoy points. Likewise, a later trip may be a cheap ticket to California or Florida, but the hotel has outstanding redemption value for the dates in question. Why blow 250,000 Bonvoy points on a week in a $300/night room when I can use those 250,000 Bonvoy points on a week in a $600/night room on a later trip?

If you travel for work and are banking points from stays and flights, a really good strategy is to use a CC program to augment your weakest point earning program - typically airlines today. Someone who stays 75 nights a year in a Marriott is going to bank hundreds of thousands of Bonvoy points each year just on the stays, so adding another 70k Bonvoy points from CC spend doesn't give as much bang as throwing CC points at airlines, where you may only earn 30-50k miles per year from your flights. If you can convert CC spend into another 50k airline miles each year, you're doubling your airline pool while still accumulating a healthy hotel point pool from passive stays.

This is my strategy today, where I earn a majority of my miles via CC spend and all my hotel programs accrue solely from stays/nights. This is particularly the case now that most airlines have moved to a PQD/MQD system - I used to bank over 12,000 miles per trip to SEA or SFO, but now will get closer to a third or half of that under PQD/MQD rules.

[longtimelurker]

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@Aim_High wrote:

which is one reason I thought redeeming UR points @ 1.5x value through Chase portal on my CSR card made the most sense.  It's not the absolute highest potential value but its simple, no-fuss, and earns me a better return on my travel and dining-out than simple cash-back options.  

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I've said this before but think it's worth saying again among all the UR/MR/TYP love!

If you are sure that your only (or nearly only) redemptions are going to be portal-based, it's worth examining other alternatives, and then it becomes more of earning potential (vs AF) issue.

So one possibility is the Wells Fargo Propel/Visa Sig pairing, which for no annual fee gives you 1.5c per point through the portal, and the ability to earn 3 points on a wide variety of travel/dining including gas.  No 5x like Ink/Freedom (or MR Plat) but again no AF.   Major downside is the gap needed between getting the cards (but a trusted partner can get one instead)   No lounge benefit here.

Another is the US Bank Altitude Reserve, with a $75 effective AF.   If you have a lot of mobile pay (easier with Samsung) you can get 4.5 for travel on all such purchases through the portal or through Rapid Rewards when allowed.    

And last is TYP using Premier/DC.   This allows you to get 1.25 cpp through the portal, with the DC earning two points per $ on all transactions, for a total of $95 AF.  Premier gets 3 points on travel and gas.   No lounge benefit here.