What a doozy! Terms & conditions...ya gotta read this!

[IOBA]

If this fits somewhere else better, mods, please move it.

I use a small, local bank for banking.  When I attempted to log in last week, a box popped up with updated terms & conditions.  It went on and on and on, mostly talking about transfers between accounts (it did not specify internal or external account transfers).  Yada, yada, blah, blah. The third party companies used have THEIR own third party companies to get the job done.

But what really caught my eye was this -- I've read it ten times and the wording hasn't changed.

"a.   Mobile Subscriber Information. You authorize your wireless carrier to disclose information about your account, such as subscriber status, payment method and device details, if available, to support identity verification, fraud avoidance and other uses in support of transactions for the duration of your business relationship with us. This information may also be shared with other companies to support your transactions with us and for identity verification and fraud avoidance purposes.

"b.   Device Data. We may share certain personal information and device-identifying technical data about you and your devices with third party service providers, who will compare and add device data and fraud data from and about you to a database of similar device and fraud information in order to provide fraud management and prevention services, which include but are not limited to identifying and blocking access to the applicable service or Web site by devices associated with fraudulent or abusive activity. Such information may be used by us and our third party service providers to provide similar fraud management and prevention services for services or Web sites not provided by us. We will not share with service providers any information that personally identifies the user of the applicable device."

I talked to a bank manager (over the phone) about the new terms and conditions.  He was shocked that I had actually read them AND that it granted the bank, their third party, and THEIR third parties access to my cell phone account!

Nothing has changed.  I can't do online banking anymore.  I can't even see my bank balances.  Not until I agree to the above, which I won't.  Now I will have do my banking the old fashioned way to giving written instructions to transfer money from internal accounts at the bank,  through the drive thru.    Lobby is still closed.

Would you agree to those terms??

[Anonymous]

I'm not surprised nor alarmed by this. It's actually pretty commonplace and just the act of using a phone, especially if it's an Android phone, means all that data is out there being used anyway whether it's disclosed in terms or not. 

[SouthJamaica]

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@IOBA wrote:

If this fits somewhere else better, mods, please move it.

I use a small, local bank for banking.  When I attempted to log in last week, a box popped up with updated terms & conditions.  It went on and on and on, mostly talking about transfers between accounts (it did not specify internal or external account transfers).  Yada, yada, blah, blah. The third party companies used have THEIR own third party companies to get the job done.

But what really caught my eye was this -- I've read it ten times and the wording hasn't changed.

"a.   Mobile Subscriber Information. You authorize your wireless carrier to disclose information about your account, such as subscriber status, payment method and device details, if available, to support identity verification, fraud avoidance and other uses in support of transactions for the duration of your business relationship with us. This information may also be shared with other companies to support your transactions with us and for identity verification and fraud avoidance purposes.

"b.   Device Data. We may share certain personal information and device-identifying technical data about you and your devices with third party service providers, who will compare and add device data and fraud data from and about you to a database of similar device and fraud information in order to provide fraud management and prevention services, which include but are not limited to identifying and blocking access to the applicable service or Web site by devices associated with fraudulent or abusive activity. Such information may be used by us and our third party service providers to provide similar fraud management and prevention services for services or Web sites not provided by us. We will not share with service providers any information that personally identifies the user of the applicable device."

I talked to a bank manager (over the phone) about the new terms and conditions.  He was shocked that I had actually read them AND that it granted the bank, their third party, and THEIR third parties access to my cell phone account!

Nothing has changed.  I can't do online banking anymore.  I can't even see my bank balances.  Not until I agree to the above, which I won't.  Now I will have do my banking the old fashioned way to giving written instructions to transfer money from internal accounts at the bank,  through the drive thru.    Lobby is still closed.

Would you agree to those terms??

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Well I never would have read them. So I would  have wound up agreeing to them

[Anonymous]

That’s the problem, nobody reads these agreements because they are so long and they are giving more and more and more authority and more and more data.

While what you listed above sounds somewhat innocuous, it sounds like they’re just building a database of trusted devices and fraudulent devices and that this is a third-party service that they are contracting with that is building and maintaining this fraud prevention database. Apparently they then block the fraudulent devices from their customers services. So again they are using our data to make money. Surprise.

The one thing that makes me look at it in the above manner is it enumerates examples of the type of data. There is a canon of statutory construction that requires when there is an example list given, then they can’t use it to justify things of a totally different nature. So it sounds just like payment method and device details, the only thing concerning is what personal information?

But this is just my uninformed opinion.

[DaveInAZ]

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@Anonymous wrote:

I'm not surprised nor alarmed by this. It's actually pretty commonplace and just the act of using a phone, especially if it's an Android phone, means all that data is out there being used anyway whether it's disclosed in terms or not. 

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Windows OS as well. When I applied for the Elan Max Cash card in late January it went into review. A few days later I got a call from their security department. After the rep asked me a few questions she asked if I had applied for the card while I was "traveling". I was a bit taken back, and told her No, I had applied using my Windows 10 desktop PC at home, using my Firefox browser. The rep said "Yes, I see that, but your IP address placed you in southern California". Then it hit me, I live on a rural 10 acre property and cellular is my best option for internet and last fall I switched to T-Mobile Home Internet. After the switch I noticed that internet ads that try to personalize things by inserting your geo location now said "California residents . . ." instead of "Arizona residents . .", and the Speedtest app placed me specifically in Anaheim, apparently where T-Mobile has an internet data center. The rep accepted the explanation and said she would forward my app to underwriting, got my approval email the next day. BTW, I recently started using Visible (Verizon subsidiary) to supplement Tmo, on Visible they think I'm in Kansas.

I wouldn't be concerned about those terms & conditions, fraud is rampant these days and technology is an important tool to fight it, including gathering as much information to ensure it is really you.

[IOBA]

The terms and conditions popped up using my laptop.  I don't do the phone banking.

The terms and conditions did not limit what information they could access, or limit what they would use the information for.

The terms and conditions did not say who their third party companies are, or who their third party third party companies were.

I accept that lots of information is already out there.  But I am not comfortable agreeing that anyone can come into my devices and take information.  Since I do not have a cell phone account in my name, I would be giving them permission to access someone elses account. Not really fair to the person who lets me use their phone number.

Choices.  I choose to say no.  I still think it's unreasonable to want to know my method of payment and account status for a mobile device.

[IOBA]

PS - a lot of information that is collected "to prevent fraud" and to "verify identity" is often wrong.  For example, I don't have a cell phone.  So any information collected regarding anyone's phone number that has been associated with me, would be wrong information to verify me.   Some of the questions used to "verify identity" have had absolutely NOTHING to do with me ever in my life.  I answer honestly/correctly and I am denied access to whatever since my identity cannot be verified.   That is another whole topic!  How do you prove that it is wrong when the persons/the companies computer says it's true?

Btw, not getting a cell phone becuase they do not work well in the area I live.  Plenty of people have cell phones if I need to use one.

[Anonymous]

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@IOBA wrote:

The terms and conditions popped up using my laptop.  I don't do the phone banking.

The terms and conditions did not limit what information they could access, or limit what they would use the information for.

The terms and conditions did not say who their third party companies are, or who their third party third party companies were.

I accept that lots of information is already out there.  But I am not comfortable agreeing that anyone can come into my devices and take information.  Since I do not have a cell phone account in my name, I would be giving them permission to access someone elses account. Not really fair to the person who lets me use their phone number.

Choices.  I choose to say no.  I still think it's unreasonable to want to know my method of payment and account status for a mobile device.

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@IOBA I assumed phone but yes it's verifying your device so that it knows it's the same device that logs in next time so that it verifies it to you. If it sees unknown device it might require additional verification.

But I still agree with you that the terminology is overly broad and I don't like it either. They call these adhesion contracts because it's basically you agree to it or you get no service and you have no negotiating capacity. I dislike it as well. 

Account status to verify that the number is still yours so they can send SMS verifications and payment method again to try to verify it is you.

But I still agree overly broad and that's how they do it they always collect more than they need, start small and then it gets bigger and bigger and before you know it they got access to everything.

And you have a good point about it not being fair to the person who lets you use their number, no I'm sure it would probably be specific to the telephone number.

Still looks like they should give you an option if you're doing it by laptop where are you don't have to agree for any mobile terms since you're not doing anything mobile. I don't know I think I would probably change banks. I don't like it either. 

[Anonymous]

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@IOBA wrote:

PS - a lot of information that is collected "to prevent fraud" and to "verify identity" is often wrong.  For example, I don't have a cell phone.  So any information collected regarding anyone's phone number that has been associated with me, would be wrong information to verify me.   Some of the questions used to "verify identity" have had absolutely NOTHING to do with me ever in my life.  I answer honestly/correctly and I am denied access to whatever since my identity cannot be verified.   That is another whole topic!  How do you prove that it is wrong when the persons/the companies computer says it's true?

Btw, not getting a cell phone becuase they do not work well in the area I live.  Plenty of people have cell phones if I need to use one.

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@IOBA I totally understand. I'm often in a rural area where I have to walk outside or go down the street to catch a signal on a cell phone myself. Starlink is coming soon though and you can always do Wi-Fi calling that may be an option depending on where you're at. 

and again you're totally correct but a lot of the information that they collect is incorrect. The way they look at it is they are preventing more fraud than their error rate, so they call it a win, I guess.

now onto the important question you posed. How do you get this crap fixed when the computer says it's true and you know it's not?

You need to go to LEXIS-NEXIS and pull your full file disclosure and pull your Verint report. Find the errors and correct them and that will take care of most of your problems. Most creditors and government agencies pull their ID questions from there. 

[Anonymous]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@IOBA wrote:

The terms and conditions popped up using my laptop.  I don't do the phone banking.

The terms and conditions did not limit what information they could access, or limit what they would use the information for.

The terms and conditions did not say who their third party companies are, or who their third party third party companies were.

I accept that lots of information is already out there.  But I am not comfortable agreeing that anyone can come into my devices and take information.  Since I do not have a cell phone account in my name, I would be giving them permission to access someone elses account. Not really fair to the person who lets me use their phone number.

Choices.  I choose to say no.  I still think it's unreasonable to want to know my method of payment and account status for a mobile device.

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@IOBA I assumed phone but yes it's verifying your device so that it knows it's the same device that logs in next time so that it verifies it to you. If it sees unknown device it might require additional verification.

But I still agree with you that the terminology is overly broad and I don't like it either. They call these adhesion contracts because it's basically you agree to it or you get no service and you have no negotiating capacity. I dislike it as well. 

Account status to verify that the number is still yours so they can send SMS verifications and payment method again to try to verify it is you.

But I still agree overly broad and that's how they do it they always collect more than they need, start small and then it gets bigger and bigger and before you know it they got access to everything.

And you have a good point about it not being fair to the person who lets you use their number, no I'm sure it would probably be specific to the telephone number.

Still looks like they should give you an option if you're doing it by laptop where are you don't have to agree for any mobile terms since you're not doing anything mobile. I don't know I think I would probably change banks. I don't like it either. 

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You do have the ability to look for other financial providers. Or as the poster is doing, adjust one's banking habits. Agree with all that is said! Do remember, the person that has the gold rules!