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hypothetical question

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Anonymous
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hypothetical question

My husband  wanted to know why, if we can qualify for the higher amount, a seller can't kick us back 3.5% at closing for the downpayment. I said I don't think it can be done for the whole downpayment, and probably FHA wouldn't like it, but I have no explanation for why not. I did it for 5% of my sales price when I bought a house 10 years ago, but I had another 15% in cash and gift, and it was conventional, and house appraised fine.

 

 

Message 1 of 12
11 REPLIES 11
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: hypothetical question


@Anonymous wrote:

My husband  wanted to know why, if we can qualify for the higher amount, a seller can't kick us back 3.5% at closing for the downpayment. I said I don't think it can be done for the whole downpayment, and probably FHA wouldn't like it, but I have no explanation for why not. I did it for 5% of my sales price when I bought a house 10 years ago, but I had another 15% in cash and gift, and it was conventional, and house appraised fine.

 

 


To my knowledge, they can't do it for the downpayment, but they can do it for your closing costs, if the seller is willing.  If they do it for the downpayment, then the seller is assissting with your downpayment and that is not legally allowed, it was banned last October?  September?

Message 2 of 12
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: hypothetical question

FHA is fine with the seller providing up to 6% for closing costs. Go for it!
Message 3 of 12
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: hypothetical question

The answer to you question actually lies within your question.  You don't qualify for the loan if you don't have the money down.  It is one of the key approval criteria.  So the question of "why if we could qualify for x amount" doesn't apply.  Sellers can help with closing costs, but if you are asking for "cash back" or for the seller to pay down payment then that is not allowed (technically I don't think it ever was but some non-profit groups used a loophole to gift buyers a down payment if the sellers agreed to "donate" a like amount to the non-profit.  The situation where you put down 15% does not apply because you were putting more than the minimum amount. 

 

Anyways, the bottom line is that people with no "skin in the game" were too likely to default so they do not allow 0 down. 

Message 4 of 12
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: hypothetical question

The reason we discussed it is because we are selling our house, in which we have a lot of equity. We will have plenty of "skin in the game" but we were discussing all the what-ifs since we want to sign an agreement contingent on the sale of our house. The house is in my name only, so DH could conceivably buy the other one if another offer comes along, but the downpayment would be the tricky thing, since A) we planned to take it from the sale of the other, and B) our current cash is being used to prepare this house to sell in order to get said downpayment.

 

Maybe it's all too complicated and I have to just let it go... the house we want has been on the market a while and I don't think there's a line of interested buyers and it needs work, but I'd be very sad to lose it.

Message 5 of 12
MattH
Senior Contributor

Re: hypothetical question

 

There is a deep, fundamental, unavoidable economic problem with any form of down payment assistance where the funds for the down payment come from the seller in any way, shape, or form whether directly or indirectly: such purchases are much more likely to go into default down the road.  No matter what the parties say, no matter what the parties intend, seller-funded DPA has severe economic flaws that cannot be wished away.

 

There are several reasons for this, but the main issues are:

 

1. The ability of the buyer to bring substantial cash is a demonstration of the buyer's resources; seller-funded DPA is an attempt to evade lender requirements that exist for a reason.

 

2. The buyer who brings hard equity to a transaction is less likely to be upside-down should the price drop

 

3. Any transfer of funds from seller to buyer is a distortion of the arms-length relationship between the parties that is fundamental for the stated sale price to represent a genuine market price; in most cases the seller attempts to pad the price by the percentage of the DPA, so the price of record does not represent a genuine market price.  In the absence of seller-funded DPA, the buyer has a strong incentive to keep the purchase price as low as possible while the seller has a strong incentive to keep the purchase price as high as possible.  The outcome of negotiations between such a buyer and such a seller is the best possible measure of true market price available; the entire purpose of markets is to establish valid prices through transparency.  But if DPA is coming from the seller to the buyer, the arms-length relationship no longer exists and the incentive for the buyer to bargain hard on the price is weakened due to the DPA.

 

A purchase transaction including seller-funded DPA is a pig.  Lipstick on a pig does not change it into something other than a pig.  Lenders do not like the risk of seller-funded DPA, and attempting to prevent a lender from learning that DPA was provided by the seller may well constitute mortgage fraud.  A padded "price" in conjunction with a "down payment" from the seller creates an illusion of equity that does not really exist.

 

There have been successful DPA programs that are funded from sources other than the seller, and these work better because a DPA provider without any economic relationship to the seller has a vastly stronger incentive to ensure that (1) the buyer can afford the purchase and (2) the buyer does not overpay.

 

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Message 6 of 12
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: hypothetical question

You could still put a contingency offer on based on selling your house.  Proceeds from the sale of a house are perfectly useable as down payment funds and as long as the LO and UW knew going in where the DP funds were coming from you should have no problem getting an pre-approval with the contingency that the first house sell, and that enough funds be left over to pay for the down payment. 

 

If you are afraid to loose the house you really want, consider lowering your price to get a quicker sale on your current residence.  If there is as much equity as you imply in the response, maybe there is room to drop some to get a quick sale.  I know in my area at least, reasonably priced homes are selling.  Have your realtor contact the sellers and see if they would accept a contingency offer based upon you selling your house within x amount of days....  As long as you do not try to buy until the other is sold (but have all the paperwork, documents, etc ready to go) there is no reason this shoudl stop you assuming:

 

a-   The sellers are willing to accept a bid based upon the stated contingencies

b-   You get as much of the loan process out of the way as you can so you are ready to close quick (you don;t want to loose a buyer on your house due to waiting for the purchase of the other to go through...)

c-   You can qaulify for the new loan amount and the house appraises for enough $.

Message 7 of 12
DallasLoanGuy
Super Contributor

Re: hypothetical question


@MattH wrote:

 

There is a deep, fundamental, unavoidable economic problem with any form of down payment assistance where the funds for the down payment come from the seller in any way, shape, or form whether directly or indirectly: such purchases are much more likely to go into default down the road.  No matter what the parties say, no matter what the parties intend, seller-funded DPA has severe economic flaws that cannot be wished away.


 

 
 ahh.... Wise word from the Mattster

 

Retired Lender
Message 8 of 12
DallasLoanGuy
Super Contributor

Re: hypothetical question


@Anonymous wrote:

My husband  wanted to know why, if we can qualify for the higher amount, a seller can't kick us back 3.5% at closing for the downpayment. I said I don't think it can be done for the whole downpayment, and probably FHA wouldn't like it, but I have no explanation for why not. I did it for 5% of my sales price when I bought a house 10 years ago, but I had another 15% in cash and gift, and it was conventional, and house appraised fine.

 

 


 
seller cannot kick back down payment..... legally!!!
they can kick back 3% or 6%(conv or fha) of the sales price in closing cost help though.
getting around the down payment with contribution from the seller is fraud.....  no matter how you color it.
 

 

Retired Lender
Message 9 of 12
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: hypothetical question

Wow! Well I did it in 1998, and I had no idea it wasn't ok to do. None of the lawyers stopped it, so maybe they figured it covered closing costs and was a wash? Frankly, I remember being surprised it could be that easy, but I was very naive, and had small children counting on me to put a roof over their heads, so I didn't think to question it.

 

This time, though, I knew it was fishy, just wasn't sure why.

 

Thanks for the detailed answers!

Message 10 of 12
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