I was testing all zeros cause I wound up there after whacking all my Chase balances a few weeks ago, and so I was expecting something less than the 690ish I was at previously at DCU. Newp, north of 720.
I was seriously curious at this one so I pulled a 1B report just to see.
This was a 6/7/2018 pull reason codes with a CFA and a 30D late from April and a score of 691. Also my last account open date is 1/2017.
- You recently missed a payment or had a derogatory indicator reported on your credit report.
- You have missed payments or derogatory indicators on your credit accounts.
- You opened a new credit account relatively recently.
- You have a short credit history.
The one I just pulled today 9/29/18 with the same info but all zero's: 726:
- You recently missed a payment or had a derogatory indicator reported on your credit report.
- You have a short credit history.
- You have one or more accounts showing missed payments or derogatory indicators.
- There are no recent balances on your revolving and/or open-ended accounts.
I need to update this once the CSR finally reports, but moving up more than 30 points (2 whole tiers, that's huge in the mortgage world)... I don't quite know what caused this could have been new account fading (which may have just gotten pushed off the table) but short-history moving into the #2 slot suggests something may have changed in the late aging or I am in a completely different scorecard as a result of the AOYA metric... and the fact we're all confident AZ is a penalty on every FICO model, presumably I may be even up more than this.
It's also a weird number if it was that new accounts bit: 20 months? That's less strange than a 30D late aging at 5 months but color me a bit confused. I do have DCU scores from the following with the variations in purple I believe coming from balances shifting around as I was running some up during my out of work phase:
4/27/18: 767 (pre-30D)
5/25/18: 689
6/29/18: 697
7/27/18: 671
8/31/18: 682
9/28/18: 726
Thoughts?
There are 3 months between those reason statements. Do you know the rank order of reason statements in the prior two months? How old is your installment loan and what is the B/L? There are loan specific aging attributes. Regardless, the change in reason statement order suggests a lessening of derogatory attribute due to aging - as does the spike in score. A scorecard re-assignment is possible but, unlikely, and really doesnot explain the score change.
I had that "new credit account relatively recently" reason statement even at 4 years 11 months. The "opened relatively recently" dropped off at 5 years (not on 10/2016 report)
Changes in scorecard I would suggest are primary drivers of score changes, but I take your point that given the reason codes are the same (basically) it's not the obvious change as going from derogatory to clean(ish) scorecards where some reason codes vis a vis recent account opening don't exist at all in the derogatory ones. I was throwing out some conjectures to drive the conversation.
Thanks for the tip on the new account reason code still being around even years later on FICO 04, +1 on simply just reducing in impact. Sadly I don't have EQ FICO 5 reason codes for the intervening months, the lack of score movement besides worsening balances suggests that there wasn't much there TBH.
I'm curious as to why you think it might be installment loan related? But for completeness:
Mortgage:
- Opened 7/15
- 215,274/258,750
Alliant SSL:
- Opened 5/14
- $18/$500
Chase should report a balance in the next few days, when it lands on EQ I'll re-pull with an updated reason code list.
ETA: oh hey, looking at that I just thought of another test for FICO 8 - pay off the Alliant loan and if I don't drop in score, Mortgage is counted for installment utilization similarly.
@Revelate wrote:I'm curious as to why you think it might be installment loan related? But for completeness:
Mortgage:
- Opened 7/15
- 215,274/258,750
Alliant SSL:
- Opened 5/14
- $18/$500
Chase should report a balance in the next few days, when it lands on EQ I'll re-pull with an updated reason code list.
ETA: oh hey, looking at that I just thought of another test for FICO 8 - pay off the Alliant loan and if I don't drop in score, Mortgage is counted for installment utilization similarly.
There are aging attributes for installment loans thus, the question. It looks like your youngest installment loan (mortgage) crossed 3 years sometime in August - FWIW.
Also, thought your installment loan B/L (amount owed) may have have crossed a threshold, your 30 day late crossed an aging (time since) milestone or your CFA is finally being discounted. Best I can tell your B/L is at 83% - so doubtful any scoring threshold crossed there.
Not sure paying off the SSL is a valid test for determining anything regarding differentiation between an SSL or mortgage. The payoff would have virtually no impact on aggregate B/L and I doubt a drop in installment AAoA from 45 to 36 would be meaningful. Frankly, I would anticipate no score change either way.
Small but important quibble:
That installment loan history piece you highlighted is EX FICO 2 specific, that is a FICO 98 model and EQ FICO 5 = Beacon 5.0 on that sheet and doesn't have it.
Installment utilization under FICO 8 / 9 (and 98 based on my data) I would suggest is seperate from any length of installment line history as they are different reason codes and I've had both in my various credit profiles: actually it looks like based on that sheet from Credco, that the change between FICO 98 and FICO 04 specifically for this is FICO 04 may look at ALL installment loans rather than just open ones. Bleck, let me go add some more data.
Re mortgage: the crux of the debate I've seen on the forum over the years is that mortgages are counted differently than other installment loans, which I've seen no evidence of in FICO 8 when it comes to installment utilization: if we've come to a different conclusion and I missed it please let me know.
I agree I wouldn't expect to see any movement, but it would effectively state that mortgages are counted with regular installment loans for purposes of installment utilization... which I suspect most of us intuitively understand. Either way my last two payments come Jan and Feb for Alliant, I don't think I cross 80% until around March on the mortgage when talking breakpoints but I should go make sure the Alliant loan is reported as closed anyway probably before that.
@Revelate wrote:I was testing all zeros cause I wound up there after whacking all my Chase balances a few weeks ago, and so I was expecting something less than the 690ish I was at previously at DCU. Newp, north of 720.
I was seriously curious at this one so I pulled a 1B report just to see.
This was a 6/7/2018 pull reason codes with a CFA and a 30D late from April and a score of 691. Also my last account open date is 1/2017.
- You recently missed a payment or had a derogatory indicator reported on your credit report.
- You have missed payments or derogatory indicators on your credit accounts.
- You opened a new credit account relatively recently.
- You have a short credit history.
The one I just pulled today 9/29/18 with the same info but all zero's: 726:
- You recently missed a payment or had a derogatory indicator reported on your credit report.
- You have a short credit history.
- You have one or more accounts showing missed payments or derogatory indicators.
- There are no recent balances on your revolving and/or open-ended accounts.
I need to update this once the CSR finally reports, but moving up more than 30 points (2 whole tiers, that's huge in the mortgage world)... I don't quite know what caused this could have been new account fading (which may have just gotten pushed off the table) but short-history moving into the #2 slot suggests something may have changed in the late aging or I am in a completely different scorecard as a result of the AOYA metric... and the fact we're all confident AZ is a penalty on every FICO model, presumably I may be even up more than this.
It's also a weird number if it was that new accounts bit: 20 months? That's less strange than a 30D late aging at 5 months but color me a bit confused. I do have DCU scores from the following with the variations in purple I believe coming from balances shifting around as I was running some up during my out of work phase:
4/27/18: 767 (pre-30D)
5/25/18: 689
6/29/18: 697
7/27/18: 671
8/31/18: 682
9/28/18: 726
Thoughts?
Wow, that's a big move; my EQ FICO 5 never moves more than 3 points no matter what I do.
Open and close dates for all my various loans on Equifax just in case: please note my original Chase mortgage states transferred but it's still listed as a tradeline rather than disappearing as it quite probably should've. Average as of today to that highly interesting 5 year mark if it's relevant should have impacted the score last month not this one.
| Loan | Type | Open Date | Months Since Open | Closed Date |
| Cashcall | CFA | 12/1/11 | 81 | 7/1/12 |
| WFDS Auto | Auto | 12/1/11 | 81 | 8/1/12 |
| USAA #1 | Secured | 1/1/12 | 80 | 1/1/15 |
| DCU Auto | Auto | 8/1/12 | 73 | 9/1/14 |
| USAA #2 | Secured | 5/1/14 | 52 | 6/1/16 |
| Alliant loan | Secured | 5/1/14 | 52 | N/A |
| Mortgage | Mortgage | 7/1/15 | 38 | N/A |
| Dupe Mortgage | Mortgage | 7/1/15 | 38 | 2/1/17 |
| Average | 61.8 | |||
| DCU HELOC | HELOC if counts | 6/1/16 | 27 | N/A |
| Average | If HELOC counts | 58 |
@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Revelate wrote:
8/31/18: 682
9/28/18: 726
Thoughts?
Wow, that's a big move; my EQ FICO 5 never moves more than 3 points no matter what I do.
Actually this is the biggest move I've ever gotten too except for when my state tax lien was deleted.
That's why I was so surprised at seeing it: something non-trivial changed but I just don't know what specifically.
@Revelate wrote:
@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Revelate wrote:
8/31/18: 682
9/28/18: 726
Thoughts?
Wow, that's a big move; my EQ FICO 5 never moves more than 3 points no matter what I do.
Actually this is the biggest move I've ever gotten too except for when my state tax lien was deleted.
That's why I was so surprised at seeing it: something non-trivial changed but I just don't know what specifically.
Well ... I can drop EQ Fico score 5 (EQ Fico 04) over 40 points just by changing # cards reporting balances. Did it twice (809 => 765) and (809 => 764). No inquiries when 764 reported. Had an INQ on a 12-2015 report (removed Jan 2016). Most recent example pasted below. [764 with 6 of 6 reporting balances book ended by 809s with 3 of 6 and 2 of 6 reporting]
@Thomas_Thumb wrote:
@Revelate wrote:
@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Revelate wrote:
8/31/18: 682
9/28/18: 726
Thoughts?
Wow, that's a big move; my EQ FICO 5 never moves more than 3 points no matter what I do.
Actually this is the biggest move I've ever gotten too except for when my state tax lien was deleted.
That's why I was so surprised at seeing it: something non-trivial changed but I just don't know what specifically.
Well ... I can drop EQ Fico score 5 (EQ Fico 04) over 40 points just by changing # cards reporting balances. Did it twice (809 => 765) and (809 => 764). No inquiries when 764 reported. Had an INQ on a 12-2015 report (removed Jan 2016). Most recent example pasted below. [764 with 6 of 6 reporting balances book ended by 809s with 3 of 6 and 2 of 6 reporting]
Grin, you know that some things for us in the lower scorecards don't apply to the truly pretty credit people!
Of all the models I've ever tracked EQ FICO 5 has the biggest propensity to flatline for me other than minor changes like inquiries and number of cards with balances when I'm in a derogatory scorecard or the least pretty of the pretty scorecards like now. Your skew is because you are in a different strata than mortals like me when it comes to credit.