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FICO AMA Discussion Thread

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Senior Contributor

Re: FICO AMA Discussion Thread


@Birdman7 wrote:
We also have official confirmation that revolving balances are considered independent of revolving utilization.

^ Agreed

 

Thanks to all those who furnished questions and answers

 

My key confirmations/takeaways were:

1) Aggregate revolving balance is considered as a dollar amount

2) Aggregate revolving balance is considered as a ratio to total available credit (utilization). This factor is more heavily weighed than #1

3) Individual revolving acount utilization is a factor in scoring based on highest card utilization. So step down utilizations across the board - don't leave one card at a high level ... unless it is a 0% APR promotion and the penalty is a non issue to you.

4) Number of accounts with balances is a scoring factor - no clarification on revolvers+ charge card accounts only or if count includes installment loans. Testing suggests installment loans are included in count.

5) Percent of accounts with balances is a scoring factor. No real clarification if that is limited to revolvers + charge cards only.

6) Open mortgages have never been required to get an 850 score. The question not asked/left unanswered is ability to reach 850 with out an installment loan of any type on file (open or closed). I'll have a data point on this later in the year.

7) Zero revolvers with balance penalty and no open loans penalty were known to exist but good to have them validated.

8) True AMEX charge cards (called "open accounts") do not factor into aggregate balance or utilization. However, I wonder if that statement overlooked Fico 98 (EX score 2) where I did see score penalties associated with high reported balances on my AMEX Green card - no impact on Fico 04 (EX score 3)

9) Balances on closed revolving accounts can be included in the aggregate balance and utilization. Wording did not say must - perhaps this can be dictated by the cra.

 

No insight provided on threshold values for revolving aggregate in $ or %. Good to clarify that rounding is to nearest %. Still think 9% or less is a thing but, the penalty would kick in at 9.5%, not 9.0%. So, the report will say 10%. [side note: Some other scoring models look at utilization to the nearest 0.01% but, our Fico experts state whole numbers are used for Fico models]

 

Unfortunately, nothing really shared regarding segmentation for scorecards so I'd say stick with collective wisdom gleaned from past FICO presentations.

 

 

 

Fico 9: .......EQ 850 TU 850 EX 850
Fico 8: .......EQ 850 TU 850 EX 850
Fico 4 .....:. EQ 809 TU 823 EX 830 EX Fico 98: 842
Fico 8 BC:. EQ 892 TU 900 EX 900
Fico 8 AU:. EQ 887 TU 897 EX 899
Fico 4 BC:. EQ 826 TU 858, EX Fico 98 BC: 870
Fico 4 AU:. EQ 831 TU 872, EX Fico 98 AU: 861
VS 3.0:...... EQ 835 TU 835 EX 835
CBIS: ........EQ LN Auto 940 EQ LN Home 870 TU Auto 902 TU Home 950
Message 11 of 75
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Valued Contributor

Re: FICO AMA Discussion Thread


@SouthJamaica wrote:

I would like to thank all the FICO staff who participated in providing answers to the questions.

 

This was quite informative, and  -- I dare say -- settles a few bets.

Yes, it was informative and I'm also thankful they took the time to respond.

 

Wait....you won actual FICO$ on here? 

 

(I think we're even? If not...I only have about 25 FICOs until my AoYRA hits 1 year. lol)

27 FICO Scores + 3 VS3. MTG (Mortgage), AUT (Auto), and BKC (Bankcard) are scores 5,4, and 2 from the top.

Keeper of the Scrolls of ResilienceEQ FICO Resilience Index Score Leaderboard

46 forum members have shared this new credit score. Share yours today!

Message 12 of 75
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Super Contributor

Re: FICO AMA Discussion Thread


@Thomas_Thumb wrote:

@Birdman7 wrote:
We also have official confirmation that revolving balances are considered independent of revolving utilization.

^ Agreed

 

Thanks to all those who furnished questions and answers

 

My key confirmations/takeaways were:

1) Aggregate revolving balance is considered as a dollar amount

2) Aggregate revolving balance is considered as a ratio to total available credit (utilization). This factor is more heavily weighed than #1

3) Individual revolving acount utilization is a factor in scoring based on highest card utilization. So step down utilizations across the board - don't leave one card at a high level ... unless it is a 0% APR promotion and the penalty is a non issue to you.

4) Number of accounts with balances is a scoring factor - no clarification on revolvers+ charge card accounts only or if count includes installment loans. Testing suggests installment loans are included in count.

5) Percent of accounts with balances is a scoring factor. No real clarification if that is limited to revolvers + charge cards only.

6) Open mortgages have never been required to get an 850 score. The question not asked/left unanswered is ability to reach 850 with out an installment loan of any type on file (open or closed). I'll have a data point on this later in the year.

7) Zero revolvers with balance penalty and no open loans penalty were known to exist but good to have them validated.

8) True AMEX charge cards (called "open accounts") do not factor into aggregate balance or utilization. However, I wonder if that statement overlooked Fico 98 (EX score 2) where I did see score penalties associated with high reported balances on my AMEX Green card - no impact on Fico 04 (EX score 3)

9) Balances on closed revolving accounts can be included in the aggregate balance and utilization. Wording did not say must - perhaps this can be dictated by the cra.

 

No insight provided on threshold values for revolving aggregate in $ or %. Good to clarify that rounding is to nearest %. Still think under 9% or less is a thing but, the penalty would kick in at 9.5%, not 9.0%. So, the report will say 10%. [side note: Some other scoring models look at utilization to the nearest 0.01% but, the text answers mention whole numbers for Fico models]

 

Unfortunately, nothing really shared regarding segmentation for scorecards so I'd say stick with collective wisdom gleaned from past FICO presentations.

 

 

 


The key takeaways for me were:

1. balances expressed in raw dollars are a factor, but weighted less heavily than balances expressed as a percentage

2. balances on closed accounts may be considered in revolving utilization (but the answers were unclear as to whether the limits on those accounts can be considered as well)

3. the 'front end' analytics on the website are not 'fluff' but are part of the analytics that go into developing the scores

4. the percentages rounded to the nearest integer, which are found in the 'front end' analytics, are the percentages which affect the scores

5. the all zero penalty and the no open loan penalty are definitely part of FICO's plan

6. according to FICO the above penalties are not based on any philosophy, but on experience that all-zero balances are slightly more predictive of risk than low balances


Total revolving limits 653000 (575000 reporting)

Message 13 of 75
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Established Contributor

Re: FICO AMA Discussion Thread

It would've been nice to have more clarification about that AU utilizations question

 

I just had my AU charge reporting a balance along with 1 revolver and my score is lower than before, all things the same. 

 

Trying to dispute it on EX and Amex verifies it as accurate Smiley Mad

 

TU lets me delete it instant and my score rises


Smiley Embarassed
Message 14 of 75
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Senior Contributor

Re: FICO AMA Discussion Thread


@Dumbee wrote:

It would've been nice to have more clarification about that AU utilizations question

 

I just had my AU charge reporting a balance along with 1 revolver and my score is lower than before, all things the same. 

 

Trying to dispute it on EX and Amex verifies it as accurate Smiley Mad

 

TU lets me delete it instant and my score rises


Not sure they could provide a simple answer. The whole AU account evaluation is convoluted with the anti-abuse half baked algorithm.

Fico 9: .......EQ 850 TU 850 EX 850
Fico 8: .......EQ 850 TU 850 EX 850
Fico 4 .....:. EQ 809 TU 823 EX 830 EX Fico 98: 842
Fico 8 BC:. EQ 892 TU 900 EX 900
Fico 8 AU:. EQ 887 TU 897 EX 899
Fico 4 BC:. EQ 826 TU 858, EX Fico 98 BC: 870
Fico 4 AU:. EQ 831 TU 872, EX Fico 98 AU: 861
VS 3.0:...... EQ 835 TU 835 EX 835
CBIS: ........EQ LN Auto 940 EQ LN Home 870 TU Auto 902 TU Home 950
Message 15 of 75
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Community Leader
Super Contributor

Re: FICO AMA Discussion Thread

It was interesting to learn that percentage of on time payments is indeed factored in despite conventional wisdom on here.







Message 16 of 75
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Super Contributor

Re: FICO AMA Discussion Thread


@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:

It was interesting to learn that percentage of on time payments is indeed factored in despite conventional wisdom on here.


@Brian_Earl_SpilnerI'm not sure that was resolved in that context. Anything less than 100% penalizes. (Exceptions are new files that dont' have any established payment history. Obviously a certain minimum amount of payment history has to established.) Anything can be converted to a percentage and the more lates, the more penalty and the percentage drops.

For a collection of our current FICO scoring wisdom, updated as we learn, read the following. Watch the revision dates on the bottom of the first 8 posts as they are regularly updated: Link to Scoring Primer.


RIP:

Oldest/average age varies by bureau. Estimates above.


Updated Oct 2020, unless otherwise noted.

(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? Severity and recency? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts, both open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (Mature/young), AOYRA-Age of Youngest Revolving Account (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/mature/new account, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just detail any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AOYRA and whether you have a loan on record to start.

For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment, please.
Message 17 of 75
Highlighted
Super Contributor

Re: FICO AMA Discussion Thread


@Thomas_Thumb wrote:

@Birdman7 wrote:
We also have official confirmation that revolving balances are considered independent of revolving utilization.

^ Agreed

 

Thanks to all those who furnished questions and answers

 

My key confirmations/takeaways were:

1) Aggregate revolving balance is considered as a dollar amount

2) Aggregate revolving balance is considered as a ratio to total available credit (utilization). This factor is more heavily weighed than #1

3) Individual revolving acount utilization is a factor in scoring based on highest card utilization. So step down utilizations across the board - don't leave one card at a high level ... unless it is a 0% APR promotion and the penalty is a non issue to you.

4) Number of accounts with balances is a scoring factor - no clarification on revolvers+ charge card accounts only or if count includes installment loans. Testing suggests installment loans are included in count.

5) Percent of accounts with balances is a scoring factor. No real clarification if that is limited to revolvers + charge cards only.

6) Open mortgages have never been required to get an 850 score. The question not asked/left unanswered is ability to reach 850 with out an installment loan of any type on file (open or closed). I'll have a data point on this later in the year.

7) Zero revolvers with balance penalty and no open loans penalty were known to exist but good to have them validated.

8) True AMEX charge cards (called "open accounts") do not factor into aggregate balance or utilization. However, I wonder if that statement overlooked Fico 98 (EX score 2) where I did see score penalties associated with high reported balances on my AMEX Green card - no impact on Fico 04 (EX score 3)

9) Balances on closed revolving accounts can be included in the aggregate balance and utilization. Wording did not say must - perhaps this can be dictated by the cra.

 

No insight provided on threshold values for revolving aggregate in $ or %. Good to clarify that rounding is to nearest %. Still think 9% or less is a thing but, the penalty would kick in at 9.5%, not 9.0%. So, the report will say 10%. [side note: Some other scoring models look at utilization to the nearest 0.01% but, our Fico experts state whole numbers are used for Fico models]

 

Unfortunately, nothing really shared regarding segmentation for scorecards so I'd say stick with collective wisdom gleaned from past FICO presentations.

 

 

 


Totally agreed, with the caveat that I believe there are 2 scoring factors, or as they call them, characteristics; there may be 4: #of revolvers w/ a bal, # of accts, w/ a bal, % of revolvers w/ a balance , and % of accounts with a balance. Seems # is more prevalent in thin or young files whereas % trumps in thick or mature files.

For a collection of our current FICO scoring wisdom, updated as we learn, read the following. Watch the revision dates on the bottom of the first 8 posts as they are regularly updated: Link to Scoring Primer.


RIP:

Oldest/average age varies by bureau. Estimates above.


Updated Oct 2020, unless otherwise noted.

(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? Severity and recency? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts, both open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (Mature/young), AOYRA-Age of Youngest Revolving Account (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/mature/new account, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just detail any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AOYRA and whether you have a loan on record to start.

For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment, please.
Message 18 of 75
Highlighted
Community Leader
Super Contributor

Re: FICO AMA Discussion Thread


@Birdman7 wrote:

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:

It was interesting to learn that percentage of on time payments is indeed factored in despite conventional wisdom on here.


@Brian_Earl_SpilnerI'm not sure that was resolved in that context. Anything less than 100% penalizes. (Exceptions are new files that dont' have any established payment history.) Anything can be converted to a percentage and the more lates, the more penalty and the percentage drops drops.


It pretty much was. While they weren't talking about the higher percentage of on time payments on an account, they mention number of accounts that are paid as agreed. That would mean adding more on time accounts would have a positive outcome for someone that has missed a payment. 







Message 19 of 75
Highlighted
Super Contributor

Re: FICO AMA Discussion Thread


@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:

@Birdman7 wrote:

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:

It was interesting to learn that percentage of on time payments is indeed factored in despite conventional wisdom on here.


@Brian_Earl_SpilnerI'm not sure that was resolved in that context. Anything less than 100% penalizes. (Exceptions are new files that dont' have any established payment history.) Anything can be converted to a percentage and the more lates, the more penalty and the percentage drops drops.


It pretty much was. While they weren't talking about the higher percentage of on time payments on an account, they mention number of accounts that are paid as agreed. That would mean adding more on time accounts would have a positive outcome for someone that has missed a payment. 


Respectfully I think they were referring to when you add your second and third revolving accounts, which adds points by reducing the too few bankcard penalty. Jmho. 

For a collection of our current FICO scoring wisdom, updated as we learn, read the following. Watch the revision dates on the bottom of the first 8 posts as they are regularly updated: Link to Scoring Primer.


RIP:

Oldest/average age varies by bureau. Estimates above.


Updated Oct 2020, unless otherwise noted.

(Forgive typos, mobile.)(Everything said is Just IMHO.)

In order to better answer your questions and record your DPs, please provide your profile stats: Any baddies? Severity and recency? (clean/dirty), Number of accounts, both open and closed on CRs (thick/thin), AoOA? (Mature/young), AOYRA-Age of Youngest Revolving Account (new accounts/no new accounts)? Open/closed loan on CR?
For example, mine is clean/thick/mature/new account, with open loan on record.
If you don't know where you fall, just detail any baddies, your number of open and closed accounts, AoOA, AOYRA and whether you have a loan on record to start.

For utilization questions, list individual and aggregate utilizations, revolving and installment, please.
Message 20 of 75
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