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FICO Increase With Third Card?

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Increase With Third Card?


@Anonymous wrote:

Hi James.  This could be a purely practical question: what would help me out most long term, considering all the different pros and cons?  (And this would include reasons that are not confined solely to scoring benefit.)

 

Or you could be chiefly interested in it as a theoretical question about the FICO 8 model.

 

One question for you.... how many accounts do you have on your report?  (Closed and open.)  Three open-the two Cap1 revolvers and an auto lease.  Amex isn't listed.  Opened it in September 2018.  Seven closed, two revolvers, two auto leases, a mortgage and two HELOCs.  There are advantages to having more than just four accounts on your report.

 

Also, are you planning to buy a house in the next 13 months?  If so, there are disadvantages to adding a card.  (Same question for whether you plan to buy a car, but the disadvantage is softened quite a bit there.)  No on mortgage.  A renter right now and don't see that changing in short-intermediate term.


Hey CGiD.  I started off thinking of the third card scenario as a short term boost that would remain long term, all other things remaining equal (which they never do).  After reading the posts on here I've come to a couple conclusions:

1-I'm more interested in long term really.  I'm impatient by nature so I start off thinking of ways to boost my score so I could land something in the UR ecosystem which I've been declined for twice in the past year (CSP).  Now, I just think I should let things happen organically while I do as many of the right things as I can.

2-It seems that my two revolvers and Amex Gold probably counts as three cards so a third revolver is probably a moot point for me anyway.  I' m likely already enjoying the three cards boost, whatever that may or may not be.

 

To answer your questions.. see above in RED.

Message 11 of 16
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Increase With Third Card?


@Anonymous wrote:

One more question for James.  It's a bit off-topic, but not if we construe James asking for advice on what kind of cards make most sense for him long-term, which is one reading of his initial post.

 

Have you carefully looked at the cost of that Gold card (i.e. annual fee) compared with a good no-annual-fee alternative?  A simple way to do that is to have two scenarios: one with the Gold card (over 10 years) and the other with a couple NAF cards that have benefits you like.  The Gold card costs $2500 over ten years plus gives you some rewards and benefits.  The NAF cards would cost $0 plus giving you rewards and benefits.


So, I look at and understand the Gold card cost.  My thinking is that the $100 travel credit is worth $100 for me as I fly American a lot (as does my son who is in college) and just get a $100 American gift card.  That leaves the cost at $150/year.  The $10/month food credit is useful but not amazing.  I make sure to use it via grubhub, which I might not use if not for the Amex credit.  Basically, I do a Chinese food delivery that usually costs me $30 and it ends up netting to $20.  I would say that I value that at maybe 50% of it's value, $60.  That leaves a net cost of $90/year.  I spend $1,000-$1,200 a month on groceries and restaurants so get basically 50k-60k MR points for that a year.  I also probably average about $5000-$7,000 spent on air a year, one way or the other and get 15k-20k MR points for that.  Taking the midpoints, and rounding, let's call it about 70k MR points a year which maybe has a value of $800-$900.  Almost all other non-hotel (hotels go on Cap1 Venture1 for 10x points) spend goes on Amex BBP.   

Cash back would be great too, but I'd prefer points.  Not for a practical reason but cash back just would go into paying my off my monthly bill and I wouldn't really get much out of it besides savings.  With points, I kind of have to use for travel which I'm hoping "forces" me to take an extra trip or two a year.  If that makes sense.  I guess I could take the cash back amount and make a deposit in a savings account or something and use it on travel (or other treats such as new TV, computer, etc).

 

Do you have any suggestions on cards for me given all of the above data and preferences?  Nothing would make me happier than not paying any fee and getting the same or better rewards that "force" me to travel more.  That's one reason I want in on the UR system...ease of booking travel with the 1.25 or 1.5 cents per point on Chase travel portal.

Any thoughts, suggestions, advice, arm twisting, wisdom would be much appreciated.

Thanks for your help!

Message 12 of 16
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Increase With Third Card?

Fascinating!  It sounds like you want something in place that pushes you to take 1-2 extra trips a year.  Maybe you feel like 1-2 vacations a year would be good for your mental health, but you might not take them if you didn't have something pushing you to do it (and not taking the vacations would ultimately be bad for you, all things considered).

 

Do I understand that right?

 

Usually I am talking the person through the hidden costs of the "free" vacation: the money spent on hotels, food, alcohol, other entertainment, etc.  The extra costs of the vacation often far outstrip the reward of the free flight.

 

But in your case, you actively want something to push you to take extra vacations... is that right?

 

PS.  The costs of vacations is one case study in the broader issue of the costs of ANY credit card rewards package.  The only rewards packages with no counterbalancing costs is where a person has carefully analyzed his spending and he is certain his spending is exactly the same as if he had a debit card.  That's hard to be sure of, however.  The nature of CC rewards (and credit cards in general) is that they seduce us into spending more money than we would if we had to pull actual paper cash out of our wallet each time (and watch the green stuff go away).  The rewards package intensifies the problem: it sets up a subconscious belief that we are making money (3% cashback, man!) by spending it.

 

PPS.  It sounds like you have done some really careful thinking which is great.  I will suggest that the correct way to think about these kind of pro-con analyses is not to look solely at the rewards one gets from the card but to compare the same spending with a NAF strategy. 

 

Here's an example.  The Amex Blue Cash Preferred gives you 6% back on groceries, 3% on gas, 1% on everything else -- and it comes with a $95 AF.  Its NAF sibling is the Blue Cash Everyday which gives you 3% on groceries, 2% on gas and 1% on everything else.

 

The correct way to evaluate whether the BCP is a better card for Bob than the BCE is not to look at all the rewards and then see if they total to more than $95.  That's because he could have also been getting those rewards with NAF cards.  Thus, forget the cash he gets for gas and miscellaneous purchases, since there are NAF solutions that give you at least those rewards or better.  And with the groceries, he needs to calculate how much he spends there and take 3% of that amount -- which is the additional rewards rate over the BCE.  Thus the BCP basically has value if he is certain he'll spend $3200 per year.  Even then he might want to raise that higher given that he can get 5% on groceries for half of the year with NAF alternatives (e.g. Discover and Freedom).

 

Great to see how much thought you have spent on the pros and cons.  The important thing is doing vigrorous and methodical thinking.

 

 

 

Message 13 of 16
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Increase With Third Card?


@Anonymous wrote:

Hi BBS!  One thing that strikes me as a challenge in trying to test such a thing is that often a person is interested in long term benefit.

 

So in a way what we want to compare is (say) Bob with three cards and all other factors the same vs. Bob with two.  But the act of adding the third card causes other factors to change, notably age of youngest account and AAoA (and an inquiry).  So it seems as though it would be hard to quantify the extra card's value: even if it some significant long term value that might be harder to see mixed up with the other (very temporary) score harm.

 

 


Hey there CGID.  I feel that what needs to be answered here is where the scoring benefit comes from when talking about 3 cards verses 2.  I've always considered it to be simply from the number/percentage of accounts with balances factor.  This is of course assumes a couple of things remain constant in the profile of 2 revolvers verses 3... off the top of my head my given assumptions would be that utilization thresholds aren't crossed (taking utilization out of the equation) and that the person in question doesn't have a "thin" file that's perhaps then conidered "not thin" and/or thick after the addition of another revolver.  I suppose another factor here for me would be that both revolvers are aged, (say) not younger than 24 months, as the reason code "average age of revolving accounts to low" is a possibility.  

 

For someone with a thick file that has opened an account within the last few (up to 12 really) months, going from 2 to 3 revolvers can isolate the impact of the 3rd revolver on their credit score with reasonable certainty IMO.  They'd have to pull their scores using a $1 trial after the inquiry/inquiries hit to get a starting point of course and then know that their AoYA drop and AAoA drop would be non-factors.  If the AAoA drop was a factor crossing a known threshold (say 78 months) in going from perhaps 81 months to 76 months, a person could pull their scores again in 2 months on the 1st to eliminate AAoA from the equation as those points would return at that time.  

 

Easier of course than having to deal with finding the right profile for testing or put more "work" into it than necessary is to take someone with 3 revolvers that closes one, dropping them to 2 and seeing what adverse scoring impact they see.

 

Anyway, outside of number of accounts/revolvers with balances, going by the given assumptions I made in the first paragraph above, what other FICO scoring factors are impacted by the addition of a 3rd revolver over 2? 

 

 

Message 14 of 16
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Increase With Third Card?

Thanks for your well thought out response!  Basically, I'm looking at MR points (or UR points hopefully at some point) to pay for my air.  And, when I say my, I usually mean mine, as well as the 1-3 children of mine that likely will be coming with me as well as possibly my SO.  To me, that is enough of a benefit to influence me to reach into my wallet and pay for the hotel, actvities, meals, etc.  At least for the time being, points aren't something I would be using to fly biz class to London, Tokyo or Dubai as opposed to economy.  So, while I understand that is the best use of points/miles in terms of cents of value per point/mile, for the time being, I'm focusing on the rewards paying for 100% of economy or maybe premium economy flights within the US (Hawail included) or maybe Mexico, the Caribbean or possibly Europe.  It's a "freebie" to suplement the overall cost as opposed a way to go "fancier" than I'd normally go if that makes sense.  That's how I come to the value of about 1-1.4 cents or so per MR point instead of the far higher values I'd get using them to fly biz class to Dubai.  It's also why I look at the CSP/CSR as attractive as I can use them at 1.25/1.5 cents per point on travel which is as much as or greater than what I'd get transfering my MR points to air partners and are far more flexible and require less "work".  

If I had a magic wand and could get approved for anything I wanted this afternoon, I'd be happy to land a CSR, CF, CFU and Ink Cash which would take care of just about anything for me and then I'd add the BCE probably for groceries and gas.  I am pretty sure that would take care of 95% of my total spend with a lot in bonus categories.  But, I haven't found that wand yet and won't get approved for any of those Chase cards yet.  So, I wait, and open a Chase bank account to land the $300 bonus and a relationship with them that I hope will lead to pre-approvals for CSP or CSR.  Hopefully my impatience won't get the best of me and then I just apply for the Schwab Amex Platinum which would gvie me 1.25 cents cash back for every point (which would be 5% back on dining and groceries, 3.75% on air, 2.5% on everything else)...and cost me $550 a year (the Uber and airline credits would hold full value for me so really only a net of $150...not much more than Gold really).

Message 15 of 16
Kree
Established Contributor

Re: FICO Increase With Third Card?


@Anonymous wrote:

@Anonymous wrote:

One more question for James.  It's a bit off-topic, but not if we construe James asking for advice on what kind of cards make most sense for him long-term, which is one reading of his initial post.

 

Have you carefully looked at the cost of that Gold card (i.e. annual fee) compared with a good no-annual-fee alternative?  A simple way to do that is to have two scenarios: one with the Gold card (over 10 years) and the other with a couple NAF cards that have benefits you like.  The Gold card costs $2500 over ten years plus gives you some rewards and benefits.  The NAF cards would cost $0 plus giving you rewards and benefits.


So, I look at and understand the Gold card cost.  My thinking is that the $100 travel credit is worth $100 for me as I fly American a lot (as does my son who is in college) and just get a $100 American gift card.  That leaves the cost at $150/year.  The $10/month food credit is useful but not amazing.  I make sure to use it via grubhub, which I might not use if not for the Amex credit.  Basically, I do a Chinese food delivery that usually costs me $30 and it ends up netting to $20.  I would say that I value that at maybe 50% of it's value, $60.  That leaves a net cost of $90/year.  I spend $1,000-$1,200 a month on groceries and restaurants so get basically 50k-60k MR points for that a year.  I also probably average about $5000-$7,000 spent on air a year, one way or the other and get 15k-20k MR points for that.  Taking the midpoints, and rounding, let's call it about 70k MR points a year which maybe has a value of $800-$900.  Almost all other non-hotel (hotels go on Cap1 Venture1 for 10x points) spend goes on Amex BBP.   

Cash back would be great too, but I'd prefer points.  Not for a practical reason but cash back just would go into paying my off my monthly bill and I wouldn't really get much out of it besides savings.  With points, I kind of have to use for travel which I'm hoping "forces" me to take an extra trip or two a year.  If that makes sense.  I guess I could take the cash back amount and make a deposit in a savings account or something and use it on travel (or other treats such as new TV, computer, etc).

 

Do you have any suggestions on cards for me given all of the above data and preferences?  Nothing would make me happier than not paying any fee and getting the same or better rewards that "force" me to travel more.  That's one reason I want in on the UR system...ease of booking travel with the 1.25 or 1.5 cents per point on Chase travel portal.

Any thoughts, suggestions, advice, arm twisting, wisdom would be much appreciated.

Thanks for your help!


I personally have switched a lot of my spend over to a Disney card from Chase (2x on groceries).  Not the best redemption rate, but my wife says that we cannot go into debt for a vacation. As I already have the hotel points, and airplane miles needed, the only things left are disney tickets and spending money, both of which can be bought with Disney Dollars.  (I'm trying to talk the wife into getting a a chase ink business for the major points on her business shipping costs, and the SuB would take care of tickets, but she doesn't trust herself with more cards.)

 

The point being, sometimes a less than optimal earning can still be useful if it aligns to a goal. Find something you are passionate about and see if they have a card. Lots of cards have exclusive events you can buy with points.

Message 16 of 16
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