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FICO Simulator--When using under 30%, does paying off more really matter?

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Anonymous
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FICO Simulator--When using under 30%, does paying off more really matter?

I'm looking for a seasoned credit analyst, who's spent lots of time with the subtleties.

 

So I've been trying to get myself out of a little jam...I went out of the frying pan and into the fire.

 

For many months in 2018, I worked to get my credit card use below 30%. It was in the mid-600s, and 700 was the goal. I did everything I could...worked extra hours, did a consolidation loan, etc. Sure enough, it went up to 717 (Transunion).

 

But this victory was short-lived. I hadn't properly researched account age, and really underestimated it. Being over 700, I applied for and received a few credit cards with 0% Intro APR (for balance transfers), then transferred the remaining 25% or so. I was also able to get all my other limits to skyrocket (total combined went from around 10K to 30k), thinking it would help with the 30% cushion.

 

Suddenly, my score plummetted back to the mid-600's (644 Experian, 646 Equifax, 667 Transunion), even with the greater limit and only 25% use. Since then, I've done obsessive research (which I tend to do) on the actual FICO. I'm well-aware of the basic percentage breakdowns (for what goes into the score), but have gone far beyond that. I've gathered a few charts from previous forums, which have been periodically disclosed by FICO, and even have an Excel document with all of these specific criteria, as well as the "excellent/good/fair/poor" ranges of criteria, used by several different credit score sites.

 

I'm also subscribed to www.freecreditscore.com (by Experian), and the monthly fee is well worth it to me. By comparing my scores by date, I've found some specific patterns. They seem to be in line with those charts, but not exactly the same. For example:

 

 -The "number of credit lines with a balance above 0": when it moves from 5 to 6, it seems to go up exactly 13 points (and vice versa), but from 4 to 5 is only a few points. The chart says "5-6" is one category and "3-4" is another (15 points lower)

- The "average age of all accounts (including closed): The chart gives a clear-cut formula: once it's over 2 years, it's a total of 60 points on that subfactor. Anything below (13-23 months) is 35 points (so a 25-point difference).

 I believe this is the main mistake I made when getting all these new cards: the average age went from about 27 to 22 months, so it went down. However, from what I gather, there's only a 10-point difference between 24.5 and 22.9...so it can't be that cut-and-dry. It may also be that the chart's numbers are divided in the final formula, so they don't actually make a difference of that many points.

 

So to my main question/point: I've been confused by the Experian simulator. It's been telling me that, to get back over 700, I need to pay down a significant portion of my balance...even though I'm using less than 30%. If my score went down because of the age, I understand only time will cure it. But if that's the case, then why is it saying that payoffs make a big difference...when the percentage used is under 30% to begin with? It's acting as if I have over 50% use all over again. I'd like to fix this...but on the flip side, I don't want to pay off a few grand for no reason, then have the score remain the same, when I could have used it for investing elsewhere.

 

I know that nobody knows the exact algorithms, but can anyone make sense of this?

 

42 REPLIES 42
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Simulator--When using under 30%, does paying off more really matter?

Don’t rely on simulators, they don’t ever actually factor in everything in your profile. 

 

From what I can see, you got dinged for AAoA < 2 years, inquiries, and new accounts dropping your AoYA.  How long had it been since your last account was added? Anything over 12 months has a significant scoring penalty when a new account is added. 

 

There is also a scoring penalty for multiple new accounts as far as I can tell from my own credit monitoring. 

 

Then there are the number of accounts with balances - anything greater than 1 is a penalty and anything 50% or greater is a penalty. There is likely a penalty for all cards having a balance, I haven’t specifically researched that scenario. 

 

Utilization - greater than 8.9%, 28.9%, 48.9%, 68.9%, 88.9% are all thresholds for a single card and aggregate has 28.9%, 48.9%, 68.9%, and 88.9% thresholds as well. 

 

If you’re not seeking new credit, this is all temporary. AAoA recovers with time, utilization recovers with payments, AoYA recovers with time.

Message 2 of 43
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Simulator--When using under 30%, does paying off more really matter?

Ok thanks. I guess the 28.9% explains why Experian still has 30% highlighted in red for a single card.

 

The three young accounts were opened at the end of 2018; two in November and one in December.

 

Also, the credit reports list the AAoA as 2 years, but when calculated, it's 23.9 months. So I wonder if the formula actually counts that as "under two years" or not. I'll find out in a month.

 

Do you know how long it usually takes for the AoYA to fade? Also, do you know of any sources on the utilization thresholds, or other specific ones like that?

Message 3 of 43
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Simulator--When using under 30%, does paying off more really matter?

There are indications that AoYA crosses a score threshold at 3 months and definitely at 12 months, a few points on the former and as much as 15 for the latter.

I currently have a balance on each of my cards but will see PIF on at least a couple this month. I’ll see if I can pay one off and wait for a score to update, to see if I can shed light on the above idea of having a score threshold with one card reporting zero vs no cards.

For anything else, I’m sure BBS will be along to handle it. He is the resident expert/theorist on FICO scoring subtleties.
Message 4 of 43
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Simulator--When using under 30%, does paying off more really matter?

AoYA is a significant scoring factor because, along with two others (total number of accounts and Age of Oldest Account) it is used by FICO 8 to assign clean profiles to one of 8 different "scorecards."  If you get interested in doing more research about the theory of FICO scoring, you may find that an interesting thing to learn about.

 

But bear in mind that to the extent that a person has practical concerns, there's really no need to bother about the theory of FICO scoring.  It's pretty straightforward:

 

*  Never be late on a payment, ever.  If you have lates or derogs, head over to the rebuilding forum to explore possible strategies for getting them removed.

 

*  Pay off all your CC debt.  Implement AZEO and an ultralow utilization during the month before an important credit application, otherwise keep utilization under 28.9% and never carry balances.

 

Those are the biggest things you need to remember.

 

The only two wonky things that people can benefit from knowing are (a) the importance of never opening a CFA and (b) that some FICO models can seemingly penalize you for paying off loans.  (B) is easy to protect yourself from, but you just have to work with the people here before you pay off loans.

 

So I encourage you to keep in separate mental compartments the theory pursuit (which is a hobby, like collecting stamps, and which typically has no practical benefit to a person) vs. the practical problem of raising your scores long term or short term.

Message 5 of 43
Anonymous
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Re: FICO Simulator--When using under 30%, does paying off more really matter?


@Anonymous wrote:

 

I'm also subscribed to www.freecreditscore.com (by Experian), and the monthly fee is well worth it to me.


Paying monthly fees for something that is supposed to be free (freeCreditScore.com) sounds strange.  Can you tell us more about what you are doing?

Message 6 of 43
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Simulator--When using under 30%, does paying off more really matter?


@Anonymous wrote:

Utilization - greater than 8.9%, 28.9%, 48.9%, 68.9%, 88.9% are all thresholds for a single card and aggregate has 28.9%, 48.9%, 68.9%, and 88.9% thresholds as well. 


Did you mean that the other way around?  I.e. something like this?

 

Utilization has thresholds of 28.9%, 48.9%, 68.9%, 88.9% for a single card.

Aggregate utilization has an additional threshold of 8.9%.

 

Message 7 of 43
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Simulator--When using under 30%, does paying off more really matter?


@Anonymous wrote:

@Anonymous wrote:

Utilization - greater than 8.9%, 28.9%, 48.9%, 68.9%, 88.9% are all thresholds for a single card and aggregate has 28.9%, 48.9%, 68.9%, and 88.9% thresholds as well. 


Did you mean that the other way around?  I.e. something like this?

 

Utilization has thresholds of 28.9%, 48.9%, 68.9%, 88.9% for a single card.

Aggregate utilization has an additional threshold of 8.9%.

 


Yes I did. I couldn’t sleep last night, my bad. Lol

Message 8 of 43
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Simulator--When using under 30%, does paying off more really matter?

 
Message 9 of 43
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO Simulator--When using under 30%, does paying off more really matter?


@Anonymous wrote:

AoYA is a significant scoring factor because, along with two others (total number of accounts and Age of Oldest Account) it is used by FICO 8 to assign clean profiles to one of 8 different "scorecards."  If you get interested in doing more research about the theory of FICO scoring, you may find that an interesting thing to learn about.

 

But bear in mind that to the extent that a person has practical concerns, there's really no need to bother about the theory of FICO scoring.  It's pretty straightforward:

 

*  Never be late on a payment, ever.  If you have lates or derogs, head over to the rebuilding forum to explore possible strategies for getting them removed.

 

*  Pay off all your CC debt.  Implement AZEO and an ultralow utilization during the month before an important credit application, otherwise keep utilization under 28.9% and never carry balances.

 

Those are the biggest things you need to remember.

 

The only two wonky things that people can benefit from knowing are (a) the importance of never opening a CFA and (b) that some FICO models can seemingly penalize you for paying off loans.  (B) is easy to protect yourself from, but you just have to work with the people here before you pay off loans.

 

So I encourage you to keep in separate mental compartments the theory pursuit (which is a hobby, like collecting stamps, and which typically has no practical benefit to a person) vs. the practical problem of raising your scores long term or short term.


Re: FICO Simulator--When using under 30%, does paying off more really matter?

For me, the details and subtleties are inseparable from my practical plans and pursuits. That goes for everything. Understanding these individual scorecards has already helped me make better decisions to raise the score faster, even if it's only by a few points. It took a long time before I found anything besides the generic advice that twelfth graders (should) learn in school.

 

So far, I have all the technical aspects of scorecards that I can find. If you know of any additional resources, please let me know.

Message 10 of 43
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