AMEX strikes once again

[jmbfl]

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@score_building wrote:

calm down, let's not get it twisted.  my point was merely that it is not personal in the sense they are not targeting inviduals, they are targeting large groups of card holders within certain criteria.  

ccc's assess credit behaviours based on a business relationship not a personal one.  nothing in your post is mutually exclusive from what you vaguley refer to as my "advice" but in reality was merely my two cents, no need to go balistic we are all here to share our views.

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Nothing in my post was address at you personally. Really! I mean that sincerely, OK?

But what I said needed to be said. Just because the CCC's have abstracted their relationship with the cardholder really doesn't make it less personal when they arbitrarily stick it to you because you have been profiled based on factors that are at the fringe of correlation to your credit performance. What is the core factor of your credit performance? Well, it is your credit performance! What does where you live, who owns your mortgage or what you legally purchase on you CC's have to do directly with your credit performance? It is just an attempt by credit grantors to move from a nice, rationalized system of credit scoring (FICO) that measures the core of your credit performance to a system where they can and will consider all kinds of arbitrary factors that may not be very significant at all. You either pay your bills or you don't! A FICO score measures the likelihood that you will pay your debts in the future and has been generally accepted as doing so for a long time. The rest of this is mumbo jumbo. It is relevant because they say it is. Hopefully soon it will be illegal.

Here's an analogy for you: auto insurance companies maintain that there is a correlation between your credit performance and your risk to them as a policy holder. Here's where that breaks down: am I any different a driver now when all my FICO's are over 700 and one nears 740 that I was when my credit was in the crapper? NO! Or worse yet, if my CL's are cut by AMEX effecting my UTIL and causing my FICO scores to drop am I any worse a risk to my auto carrier? NO! Yet they maintain that credit scores are a valid indicia of your risk as a driver. Bunk! If this were all so valid a consideration why would several states have made it illegal to consider credit in auto policy rating and asserted that it is not meaningful!

The "G" is going to do the same thing with consumer credit. Post legislatve change everybody is going to have to keep their eye on the ball and not the fans in the stands!

[jmbfl]

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@score_building wrote:

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@notmyname wrote:

I do know how disturbing this would be for me, but I also would know that it would not be about me or all these other people would not be writing about the same experiences. choice to try and be rational. I would encourage others to do what they have to .It is a circumstance

NMN

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knowing what we all know here i think one would have to have an ego the size of mt. everest to think a cld was about them individually.

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Did the midwestern farmers whose homesteads where threatened during the dustbowl sit around and calmly rationalize that after all taking their farm was a legally permitted action (not take it personally), fold up their tents and move on? Some did. Many others banded together to collectively defeat the "man" and as the only available buyers refused to bid more than a nickel on each other's farms The winning bidder then returned the deed to the original owner. Same thing is gonna happen here - only the collective action is going to be legislative and a lot of this arbitrary nonsense will stop.

These actions by AMEX and others are based on supposedly valid aggregate statistics. But their intent is personal! They want their balance sheet cleaned up and they want their money back. It is clear that they intend to motivate you personally to help them achieve their goals by pummeling your FICO score (legally) until they get from you (personally) what they want.

[jmbfl]

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@MidnightVoice wrote:

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@jmbfl wrote:

The days of plentiful credit may be over, but it is the absolutely absurd actions of AMEX, HSBC, WaMu/Providian, Chase and others that not only invite, but compel, legal legislative intervention! Until then we must all persevere.

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I am not sure they are breaking any laws.

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Is that clearer?

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@MidnightVoice wrote:

They are giving people free (usually) unsecured credit.

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Free - except for the APR, annual fees, monthy fees (even Chase getting in on that one) and other miscellaneous fees and charges. Kinda free if you PIF - if they really want you to PIF. Otherwise there is a hidden cost to PIF'ing.

Unsecured - except for the growing trend of those who issue what on the face of it would seem to be unsecured credit (because it looks, feels and tastes just like all your other unsecured credit) to insert a clause in their "agreement" in teeny tiny print that says the retain a security interest in whatever you buy, thereby making it not really unsecured credit. We know Sears does this and some other relatively major outfit whose name escapes me recently changed their agreement in this manor.

[MidnightVoice]

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@jmbfl wrote:

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@MidnightVoice wrote:

They are giving people free (usually) unsecured credit.

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Free - except for the APR, annual fees, monthy fees (even Chase getting in on that one) and other miscellaneous fees and charges. Kinda free if you PIF - if they really want you to PIF. Otherwise there is a hidden cost to PIF'ing.

Unsecured - except for the growing trend of those who issue what on the face of it would seem to be unsecured credit (because it looks, feels and tastes just like all your other unsecured credit) to insert a clause in their "agreement" in teeny tiny print that says the retain a security interest in whatever you buy, thereby making it not really unsecured credit. We know Sears does this and some other relatively major outfit whose name escapes me recently changed their agreement in this manor.

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To me, it is still free money with rewards available.  And if I am not happy with a card, its regulations or the way they treat me, I am able to close it and move on.

If anyone CLDs me or closes an account, I will be irritated, I quite happily agree.  ButI will just try and move on

[jmbfl]

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@MidnightVoice wrote:

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@jmbfl wrote:

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@MidnightVoice wrote:

They are giving people free (usually) unsecured credit.

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Free - except for the APR, annual fees, monthy fees (even Chase getting in on that one) and other miscellaneous fees and charges. Kinda free if you PIF - if they really want you to PIF. Otherwise there is a hidden cost to PIF'ing.

Unsecured - except for the growing trend of those who issue what on the face of it would seem to be unsecured credit (because it looks, feels and tastes just like all your other unsecured credit) to insert a clause in their "agreement" in teeny tiny print that says the retain a security interest in whatever you buy, thereby making it not really unsecured credit. We know Sears does this and some other relatively major outfit whose name escapes me recently changed their agreement in this manor.

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To me, it is still free money with rewards available.  And if I am not happy with a card, its regulations or the way they treat me, I am able to close it and move on.

If anyone CLDs me or closes an account, I will be irritated, I quite happily agree.  ButI will just try and move on

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Agreed! Yet we do the above because we can. Others are not quite so fortunate. Where this all falls out will depend on how much the vice tightens on the economic/credit picture. Right now AMEX is either: a) badly overreacting or b) a projection of the future. Let's hope for all our sakes is a). We don't need this spreading.

[score_building]

others chose not to take it personally since it was clearly an attack against a  group, not an indivdual.  this may be precisely what prompted them to 'band together to collectively defeat the "man"- that they did this, perhaps, with the added sense of clarity and purpose they had as a result of ditching baggage... the baggage often caused by taking such things as a personal afront on an individual level outright.  no? 

of course taking their farm affected each person in personal ways whether or not it was called a 'personal' or 'business' action or whether it was legal or illlegal. 

on a psychological level, people who take things too personally often choose not band together.  they typically separate themselves from others. often feeling that no one truly understands their particular situation, they abstain from banding together with the group that ultimately they feel doesn't represent their concerns. 

i appreciate your apparently highly well conceived replies, you've certainly got me off my butt and attempting to evaluate this state of affairs much more closely. 

[jmbfl]

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@score_building wrote:

on a psychological level, people who take things too personally often choose not band together.  they typically separate themselves from others. often feeling that no one truly understands their particular situation, they abstain from banding together with the group that ultimately they feel doesn't represent their concerns. 

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And "The Man" just loves this kinda thing... just as long he can stay on top of it! Keeping you from massing makes you easier to control. Trust me, every CC company is having a meeting somewhere today trying to figure out a better way to control you. They may "give" you a convenient little plastic card to pay for things with, but ultimately would like to control every last thing you do with it. AND - they pretty much can!

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@score_building wrote:

i appreciate your apparently highly well conceived replies, you've certainly got me off my butt and attempting to evaluate this state of affairs much more closely. 

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Good! (And I meant what I said to you personally before! Much love!)

(Someday when I end up quoting Mutabaruka in this forum you will know I have really lost it!)

Too late! There is a documentary movie out there called "Life + Debt" regarding the current economic situation in Jamaica. If you would like to see what "The Man" is capable of at his worst take a look! (I particularly like the opening with Buju Banton.) This is what happens when a bunch of governments let a bunch of bankers do pretty much whatever they want to, What a mess!

[sl]

This is an update to my earlier post from this morning about my Plat. card and sign and travel suspension and CLD.  I regrouped and decided I was calling card services back and actually got a very nice professional C.S. rep.  I asked her why AMEX is doing this to everyone and gave her my FICO's.  She said that they are now monitoring EVERY cardholders credit profile and will continue to do so until the credit crunch is over.  She stated if there is high usage, more than 2 credit checks in a two month period and even if you PIF each month you are subject to a CLD.  She said they monitor and if they see no improvement in your spending habits they will hit you again and if you improve in six months they will reconsider. She stated AMEX is not the only one doing this and with the news on Citicorp today and layoffs, expect more.

I know I can improved my spending habits and I trying to gear myself towards a cash-basis life-style but it takes time and will not happen over night.  I think we all just need to see the writing on the walls from the folks this has happened to and pay attention.  I think things are going to get worse before they get better.

My membership is not up until February so I keep card until Mid-January and cancel.  They have already done away with a big perk - Friends fly free - they took that away from all Plat. Card holders so the benefits are slowly going also.  To me it is not worth $450.00

[haulingthescoreup]

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sl wrote:

... She stated if there is high usage, more than 2 credit checks in a two month period and even if you PIF each month you are subject to a CLD.  She said they monitor and if they see no improvement in your spending habits they will hit you again and if you improve in six months they will reconsider. She stated AMEX is not the only one doing this and with the news on Citicorp today and layoffs, expect more...

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This is fascinating! If she is correct, they no longer care about making money off of transaction fees, and they will be most happy with those who barely use their cards, and PIF them immediately.

A short-term solution which will help turn around their delinquency rate, but certainly no way for them to make any money.

Thank you for posting this!

[Anonymous]

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@sl wrote:

This is an update to my earlier post from this morning about my Plat. card and sign and travel suspension and CLD.  I regrouped and decided I was calling card services back and actually got a very nice professional C.S. rep.  I asked her why AMEX is doing this to everyone and gave her my FICO's.  She said that they are now monitoring EVERY cardholders credit profile and will continue to do so until the credit crunch is over.  She stated if there is high usage, more than 2 credit checks in a two month period and even if you PIF each month you are subject to a CLD.  She said they monitor and if they see no improvement in your spending habits they will hit you again and if you improve in six months they will reconsider. She stated AMEX is not the only one doing this and with the news on Citicorp today and layoffs, expect more.

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Wow... so sorry this happened to you, but what the CSR told you is very interesting indeed. So they don't even like high usage, regardless of whether you're paying the balance off in full? That sounds crazy to me... I have VERY high usage on my Blue Cash (husband is an AU and we use it for virtually everything) but I pay the balance down weekly - there's usually at least a couple of times each month when the account is in CREDIT! But that's a bad thing, apparently? Yikes. I really have no idea WHAT to do with AmEx now, although as the whole purpose of that card is to earn rewards, there's not much point sockdrawering it just to protect the CL.

 

Also... "more than two credit checks in a two month period", eh? Hmm, good to know for definite one of the things (aside from some of the more obvious ones that I think we can all guess) that WILL result in a CLD from AmEx. And even though I don't fail the "two inqs in two months" test (I have two inqs 10 weeks apart, though, one on EX and one on TU), it makes me nervous. That's one more thing for anyone hoping to keep their AmEx CLs intact for as long as possible to bear in mind. 

 

The bit about "no improvement in your spending habits" is interesting too - fair enough if you're maxing out all your cards etc, but if those "spending habits" just consist of high-but-always-PIF usage on your AmEx, then... well, it's just as well their CLDs leave people with no option but to sockdrawer the card, and it sounds like the sockdrawering will actually make AmEx very happy indeed.

 

Thanks for posting this - good to hear you managed to get a CSR who would talk to you like a human being rather than something on the bottom of their shoe who is personally to blame for the economic crisis.