Amex wants to verify my income

[Anonymous]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

---

@ElBarrbaro wrote:

---

@CreditCuriousity wrote:

---

@Anonymous wrote:

---

@CreditCuriousity wrote:

I guess my thought on this is if you didn't lie on your application who really cares if they ask for pay stubs or tax returns?  Ya a FR is a pain in the butt, but they are covering there butt as well.  If I ever need to carry a balance on an Amex I will as that is a point of a revolver thus they give you this option.  Will it sucks if I get FR'ed ya?  Will I come out of it fine if I do as I am hiding nothing, yep..  People worry way to much about this.  They could just shut down your account like other lenders, but they give you a chance to prove you are able to re-pay, and didn't lie on your application.  Just my 2 cents on this.  You should not apply for an amex card if you are worried about getting a FR.  It is very rare, but it does happen.

---

THere are valid privacy concerns that some care about.

I disagree with: "You should not apply for an amex card if you are worried about getting a FR.  It is very rare, but it does happen."

Precisely because it is very rare, it makes perfect sense to get an Amex, and, if  in the very rare event you get an FR, choose not to comply. 

---

It is intrusive I don't disagree..  You gotta play by there rules though if you do get FR'ed you can either comply and give them what they want or just have them shut down your card and cut your ties..  Pretty much that simple.  It is rare, so most people don't have to worry.  So I guess if you do get a person does get a FR they have a choice whether to provide the information or throw amex out the window of being a lender they do business with.

I still don't see what all the fuss is about carrying balances though, might make you more of a target?  I am on my first amex of my own, but my parents have been with amex for over 30 years probaby and i know within the last 5 years they have carried balances at times with no AA..  Probably depends on payments and how long you carry the balance. Who knows, I sure don't.

---

Well said.  Intrusive, yes.  Unfair, no.  They are protecting their interests and no one here knows exactly what triggers them except the people who work on those matters at AMEX...therefore everything else is simply speculation. 

---

Don't think people are claiming "unfair",   It's the privacy issues that some are concerned about.    I had them as well but in one case decided (for CLI) that the positives of getting the CLI outweighed my privacy concerns, but in outer situations, and other people, will decide differently.

Basically people should be aware that it is not only people who have lied about their income who don't want to submit the 4506-T.  Some believe it is just too much info for a simple cc lender (most put up with for a mortgage, because that is clearly real money being lent!)

---

We don't call them lies, we call them our "rapid typiing while allocating numbers" technique while filling-up credit applications.  You are writing a legit number and out of nowhere, you type so fast that an extra zero ends in there.  How do you know the universe isn't telling you that that is exactly what you should do?  Anybody who has read The Secret knows it would be ignorant to ignore such obvious signs.  So you press enter get the card and there you go...  oh, and yes, you PIF before statement, every time, and Amex couldn't care less... so, why should I or anyone?

[Anonymous]

---

@CreditCuriousity wrote:

I don't disagree.. I wouldn't be happy handing over Tax Doc's either..  It is a PITA..  They make the rules though and as stated it can happen anytime to anyone, but ya you most likely can limit the risk by PIF each month, but that is surely no gurantee either a FR won't be coming your way or my way or whomevers way.   

Just see these posts every few weeks and wonder why people are shocked when they get them.  It is a tiny percentage you only hear about people that get then not the ones that don't.   Anyways, back to work for me

---

I disagree.  If you PIF, every time, not just Amex, but all your cards, and don't spend more than your stated income suggests, you are not getting FR.  It's that simple.

[IamB2]

---

@TRC_WA wrote:

That's how I feel about it... nothing to hide... was truthful on my app... want to see my tax returns?  Sure... whatever.

---

 I am probably way late in this conversation, but I am going to chime in anyway. Some people are uncomfortable about disclosing their personal information. If it is just a straight W2 and a 1040 or 1040EZ form, fine, it shows your income, your deductions and your tax liability. There is nothing there to hide or even worry about what is being disclosed - it is the same as your paystubs.

But other people have other income, client lists via 1099 (as was mentioned by others), spouse/partner's taxes if filed jointly, donations to which charities you are making, Investment income, Investment losses, dividends, medical expenses (if the taxes are itemized) - just to name a few - and are not very happy to disclose that to a simple credit card company. I understand that the CC issuer has the right to verify your ability to pay the borrowed money, but it is unfortunate that someone may be required to disclose ALL that information just to determine one's ability to pay the debt. Yes, Income - expenses should give us what is left over to pay whatever is borrowed. If they want the Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) alone, I'd have no issues with that, but ALL the taxes, that seems very intrusive to me.

Just my two cents.

[IamB2]

---

@IWOL wrote:

Some people may have things on their tax returns they dont want a lender to see. Not becuase they did something wrong but becuase its none of their business. They only need to know what your income is.

Maybe I dont want Amex to know that I hit the jackpot in Vegas for 300K and lost it all in the same year ...lol.  Didnt happen but just an example.

Does Amex need to know how many houses you own, how much mortgage interest you paid, how much you gave or didnt give to charity, how much you gambled on the stock market

---

 + 1

I just said just about the same thing. Good call

[IamB2]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

I'm going to do a 3x CLI request next week from 20k to maybe 50-60k.  If they request my income from a W2 statement is there any downside?  Its not a issue of my income not matching what I said, its more of a question if there are any negatives associated.  I don't have much to hide but don't know if there is any best practices if they FR me.

---

I don't think that Amex asking for W2s is what most who have an issue with FR are complaining about. Everyone, I think, is asserting Amex's right to ask for income verification. But not complete tax returns as they may include personal information which some people consider very private, such as charities you donated to, medical expenses, capital gains/losses etc etc as mentioned in my previous posts (as well as others').

If they FR you, they may ask for only proof of income, such as W2s or for all of your tax returns, and as such you will have to decide if you want to comply or not.

[taxi818]

---

@NRB525 wrote:

---

@mikelo22 wrote:

If I were faced with an FR situation, I would likely just close out my account. No, I don't lie on my income, nor do I lie about any other part of my application. The FR speaks to a privacy issue for me, and the documents Amex asks for I would not be comfortable in handing over. Using the argument that, "well, if you didn't lie about your income or if you have nothing to hide, then why should you mind? Just give 'em what they want.." That's the same line of faulty reasoning that cops might ask someone if they can search their car. Even if you had nothing to hide, would you really want a cop snooping around you car, going through all your belongings, etc? To me, it's invasive, over the top, and disrespectful. 

Credit Cards are not like mortgages. I don't need Amex's Credit Card. I have plenty of others. I always PIF and I never buy something that I couldn't otherwise afford by paying straight up with cash--thus the relationship b/w a credit card vs a mortgage is extremely weak.

On the other hand, I need a mortgage if I want to buy a house. Furthermore, such documents are expected when applying for a mortgage, but most credit card companies do not feel it necessary to snoop around into a consumer's personal financial documents. 

Yes, Amex has every right to request additional docs during an FR. But so, too, are consumers within their right to thumb their noses at them and just walk away. And I think it's wrong to judge someone who places personal privacy above a simple credit card. Both sides have equally legitimate grounds for their personal opinions on this issue.

It's situations like these where I cannot emphasize enough the need to diversify your credit card portfolio. Don't get married to any one CCC. Never forget that at the end of the day, this is just a business relationship. If any one CCC tries to burn me, yes, it will irritate me, but because I have diversified myself, I will not be held to the whim of the demands of any particular CCC. As consumers, we have the power of choice. So use that to your advantage. 

---

And which bank do you have in mind who would allow $60k in charges to accumulate on one card in one months' time?

What sort of info might that bank want to know about the borrower?

---

Lol I need some popcorn for this thread +1

[CreditCuriosity]

I honestly think all the needs to be discussed here has.. Some people would hand over there Tax Documents and Some wouldn't..  Your choice, it really is that simple.  Wish you the best as stated OP on whatever happens from this and you come out of it ok.

[NRB525]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

---

@CreditCuriousity wrote:

I don't disagree.. I wouldn't be happy handing over Tax Doc's either..  It is a PITA..  They make the rules though and as stated it can happen anytime to anyone, but ya you most likely can limit the risk by PIF each month, but that is surely no gurantee either a FR won't be coming your way or my way or whomevers way.   

Just see these posts every few weeks and wonder why people are shocked when they get them.  It is a tiny percentage you only hear about people that get then not the ones that don't.   Anyways, back to work for me

---

I disagree.  If you PIF, every time, not just Amex, but all your cards, and don't spend more than your stated income suggests, you are not getting FR.  It's that simple.

---

If the cardholder fatfingered their income on a card app, however, and that error would justify a higher spend rate, the bank is supposed to accept that self-referrential cycle even at $60k spend per month? That's not good risk management by the bank.

(The $60k number here is not at all intended to imply OP does not have the ability to pay, only to bring in a sufficiently high spend rate that the bank would be alarmed)

To those proposing submitting W-2 or paystubs, the high rollers AMEX is reviewing may not have a standard payroll income source, so they have to use the tax return info to see what the cardholder has already attested is their income.

[Anonymous]

---

@CreditCuriousity wrote:

I honestly think all the needs to be discussed here has.. Some people would hand over there Tax Documents and Some wouldn't..  Your choice, it really is that simple.  Wish you the best as stated OP on whatever happens from this and you come out of it ok.

---

You seem rather blase about the whole thing, for someone who calls herself "CreditCuriosity" you don't seem all that curious to me... 

[takeshi74]

---

@baller4life wrote:
I know many have said differently but this story and many many others confirms my belief that Amex prefers you not to carry a balance.

---

It's an oversimplified and over-parroted generalization.  Utilization is a risk factor with any creditor -- not just AmEx.

---

@baller4life wrote:
But one would think those that pif are less likely to be fr'd.

---

What one thinks is irrelevant as opinions are all over the place on what might or might not trigger an FR.  What specifically triggers FR's isn't clearly understood.  Carrying a balance can certainly be a factor but it's not so simple as "balance bad, no balance good".  FR's do seem to be triggered by causes other than balances.

---

@IWOL wrote:

Does Amex need to know how many houses you own, how much mortgage interest you paid, how much you gave or didnt give to charity, how much you gambled on the stock market

---

It's clearly not a matter with a single answer for all.  Some are fine with complying with a 4506-T.  Some are not.  Each needs to to decide based on the individual's preferences and priorties.  Like every other discussion on the matter, one opinon isn't going to convert everyone over to that line of thinking.

---

@Anonymous wrote:

I'm going to do a 3x CLI request next week from 20k to maybe 50-60k. If they request my income from a W2 statement

---

They won't.  They use the 4506-T.

---

@Anonymous wrote:

is there any downside? Its not a issue of my income not matching what I said, its more of a question if there are any negatives associated. I don't have much to hide but don't know if there is any best practices if they FR me.

---

This quickly growing thread is a discussion on perceived benefit versus downside.  You can see that some have privacy concerns and others do not.  We can't tell you where you'll fall.  It's up to you to read up and decide for yourself.  

They're not going to FR you for a CLI request.  They may perform an income verification.  While both involve the 4506-T they are not the same thing.