@Aim_High wrote:
@AyaMai wrote:Thank you for the detailed response, you made me to be aware of the negative impact adding another hotel card. Yes I have American Express Hilton Honors No AF hoping to get upgrade offers to Surpass or Aspire, American Express Marriot Bonvoy Brilliant, those are my only personal hotel cards, as for IHG One Rewards Premier Card just an AU on my wife account. I do stay at certain Choice Comfort Suites & Radisson Hotels in the beginning and end of my cross country road trips from Portland to new different destinations beyond Mississippi River since they are clean and have breakfast to start the next day road trip. My average stay at hotels are 62 nights a year.
You're welcome, @AyaMai. In your case, it sounds like the Choice Privileges Select might fit you better (or as well) than some of the other cards you've got. It does offer enough points for a free annual night and 20 elite night credits which gets you automatic Platinum status. If at least 20 of those 62 nights is at a Choice property, you just reached top-tier status of Diamond.
My main point was to pick cards which worked naturally for you, and this one sounds like it will. The 90K SUB is a good deal right now also.
Can you give me the dummy version of what exactly elite night credits are, what they do, etc?? (not sure how to word it)
I went and looked at this last night, and I'm intrigued. We just bought a house, have a spare bedroom, and are looking to convert the garage into a studio. So we have space for guests, but we only live 8 mins from the beach and there are plenty of choice properties there. This may be a good fit, although her BCE has a similar reward structure.
Is WF relationship oriented? Or would having a checking not matter for this co branded card?
What are their approvals and SL like?
Thanks
@Kforce wrote:
My short version.
You need to do the math for you, and use real numbers...
Math does not lie but bad numbers in give bad numbers out.
I would just like to point out that this can be mitigated by faulty calculation, so
bad numbers in, transformed incorrectly, can give good answers.
So the moral is don't bother being over-careful checking your calculations, you may end up better off with errors!
@AyaMai wrote:I noticed you are thinking of applying FNBO Best Western Rewards Premium Mastercard in December, since no one speaks about this credit card, what made you have interest in the card itself.
I would utilize the Best Western Rewards Premium to capture non-category. Based on previous and potential Best Western stays, I would value their points right around .6 cents per point. If I spent $5k entirely on non-category every 12 billing cycles, I would earn 10k points on spend and unlock the 40k points bonus. 50k points would see a value of ~$300, subtracting the $89 annual fee would be $211. $211 in value for $5k spend works out to 4.22% return. Even seeing .5 cents per point in value would mean 3.22% return.
I currently utilize the Hilton Surpass for non-category, but with $15k required per year to unlock a certificate, it is much harder to accomplish than $5k would be, especially with opening a few cards each year and hitting their spend requirement. I'll be downgrading that to the no AF version in hopes of an upgrade offer to Aspire being extended, with the Best Westen taking its place for non-category.
I completely understand what @Aim_High is saying about hotel cards, with this reply also responding to their most recent reply. For me personally, I don't mind juggling many cards (I have 31 counting AU), don't mind spreading points among ecosystems (I track points and their value on my Finances spreadsheet), and am perfectly OK with adding a card for what some might see as a minor return, so long as that value remains long-term.
And sometimes, that value is outsized, even if the card is not used often. P2's son lives in a city where decent hotels almost always start around $160-200. There is a Marriott that goes for $300-350 or 27-30k points. We have stayed there when we had a $60 off $300+ Amex offer, bringing the effective cost to just over $240, and would easily value a stay there at $240, having just returned from a trip at a comparable hotel where we paid $235/night. Paying a $95 (personal) or $125 (business) annual fee to unlock a certificate for a $300-350 room that we value at $240 is a steal, even if we barely use the card otherwise.
P2 and I also travel a decent amount, around 40-50 nights per year, with around 60-80% of those nights being in hotels. We also do a lot of 1- or 2-night stays - we see a lot of concerts that bring us all over the northeast, plus our longer trips are often staggered. For example, we'll be flying to London and staying two nights, taking the train to Edinburgh and staying two nights, renting a car and making our way to Glencoe for two nights, then one night in Portree and finally two nights in Inverness, flying back home from there.
In 2023 alone - and this is so far, will likely be higher - we'll stay in a hotel for 1- or 2-nights 27 times. This tends to work well with certificates - even if I can only find decent options a fraction of the time, we easily use all of our certificates.
But what I like about the Best Western card - and this goes back to the Choice Privileges card as well, plus is also true for the Wyndham business card - is that the annual fee is recouped via points. As long as I have a solid redemption every few years, the annual fee - for me - is well worth it. Meanwhile, cards for Marriott/Hilton/IHG/Hyatt offer certificates. From previous experience I know we will see value from Marriott/Hilton certificates, but we are much less sure about IHG/Hyatt. I may obtain those cards for the SUBs, but am much less sure about the long-term potential.
I would say we are most invested in Hilton followed by Marriott, but we will have stayed at seven different major chains - Hilton, Marriott, IHG, Hyatt, Wyndham, Choice, and Best Western - by the end of this month, in addition to more regional chains and single-property hotels. We book based on what is the best price/value, using Google and other general searches as well as searching directly, which leads to our stays being spread out amongst chains/hotels.
So basically, we'll utilize Hilton and Marriott cards for the certificates, which are use 'em or lose 'em, but enjoy the flexibility of cards like Choice Privileges or Best Western as we'll only need to utilize the points every few years. And if we open cards and don't see value long-term, then we'll close them. P2 opened the IHG Premier with the 175k SUB, though we may not keep it long-term. If I'm wrong and we see value from the certificates, great!
APR 
P2 Chopping Block 
@Anonymous wrote:
@Kforce wrote:
My short version.
You need to do the math for you, and use real numbers...
Math does not lie but bad numbers in give bad numbers out.
I would just like to point out that this can be mitigated by faulty calculation, so
bad numbers in, transformed incorrectly, can give good answers.
So the moral is don't bother being over-careful checking your calculations, you may end up better off with errors!
I think I would rather look at where I walk even with poor vision than not look at all.
@Blender wrote:
@Aim_High wrote:It does offer enough points for a free annual night and 20 elite night credits which gets you automatic Platinum status.
Can you give me the dummy version of what exactly elite night credits are, what they do, etc?? (not sure how to word it)
I went and looked at this last night, and I'm intrigued. We just bought a house, have a spare bedroom, and are looking to convert the garage into a studio. So we have space for guests, but we only live 8 mins from the beach and there are plenty of choice properties there. This may be a good fit, although her BCE has a similar reward structure.
Is WF relationship oriented? Or would having a checking not matter for this co branded card?
What are their approvals and SL like?
Thanks
Sure, @Blender. Hotel programs (and airline programs) offer "Elite" benefits at various tiers, which offer greater value-added as you climb to the next level. Some hotels also have "lifetime elite" status levels for which a member can qualify which negates the requirement to spend x/nights per year to achieve/maintain your status level. The normal way with most hotel programs to get a higher "Elite" status is to stay more nights per year. Some chains may also have a dollar-spend requirement for certain higher levels.
Hotel credit cards can help achieve elite status with fewer stays at the property. They may award automatic elite status at a certain level, and sometimes also award a certain number of night credits towards a higher elite status. Take my situation with Marriott. Marriott elite levels are Member; then Silver; then Gold; then Platinum; then Titanium; then Ambassador Elite. My old $95 AF Chase Boundless card awarded automatic Silver status plus it gave 15 elite night stay credits. Normally to achieve Silver requires 10 paid nights. Gold requires 25 paid nights. So with the Boundless card, I received Silver status and could move up to Gold with just 10 (*corrected) more paid nights. Currently, my higher-AF AMEX Bonvoy Brilliant gives me automatic Platinum status plus 25 elite nights. (Those cannot be stacked with other personal credit card free nights; however, they can be stacked with my AMEX Bonvoy Business card's 15 nights.). So between the two cards, I have (40) elite night credits and automatic Platinum. Platinum normally takes 50 paid night stays. So now, I'm just 35 nights a year away from achieving the higher Titanium status (which would normally take 75 paid nights.). See how all that works?
And what do you get for your status? It depends by the chain, but it's common to receive additional points per dollar spent in-hotel. My Marriott Platinum status awards me 50% more points on every stay, plus late check-out, early check-in, free enhanced wifi, complimentary full hot breakfast at some properties where other guests are excluded, member support hotline, room upgrades, and more. And if you have a hotel credit credit card, you may also earn hotel points at a high return when you charge your stay on that hotel card.
To see the elite levels and read about the Choice Privileges elite program, go to >THIS LINK<.
WF can be somewhat relationship-oriented but there's no requirement to set up a deposit relationship for this card. I'm more unsure with your FICOs in the 670-range with where their cutoff lies on FICO. You may want to do some research in the approval or application archives to see at what FICO members have been approved or denied. Cobranded credit cards are sometimes an easier approval than core cards with some lenders since the brand sponsor has a vested interest in making sure their customers get a fair chance at earning the credit card to incentivize relationship and spending. The lender may relax their underwriting slightly to open the door. This is just a general observation from what I've seen, so check for data points to see how this pans out with the Choice Privileges cards.
Starting Limits are all about overall profile for every lender. With WF, I've seen low SL approvals but also some in the $30K to $50K range. WF tends to be moderate in my opinion. If you've gotten $5K on other recent approvals, they may fall in that general range, +/-. Not greatly above or below. They may be a little sensitive to recent credit-seeking but I don't know of any specific x/24 type parameters that have been documented. Basically, I wouldn't apply to them with lol/24 but lower numbers are probably best. I've found with most lenders that if you're within Chase's 5/24 rule, you're probably good for them too as long as all of those 5 aren't in the last six months! 
@Aim_High wrote:
@Blender wrote:
@Aim_High wrote:It does offer enough points for a free annual night and 20 elite night credits which gets you automatic Platinum status.
Can you give me the dummy version of what exactly elite night credits are, what they do, etc?? (not sure how to word it)
I went and looked at this last night, and I'm intrigued. We just bought a house, have a spare bedroom, and are looking to convert the garage into a studio. So we have space for guests, but we only live 8 mins from the beach and there are plenty of choice properties there. This may be a good fit, although her BCE has a similar reward structure.
Is WF relationship oriented? Or would having a checking not matter for this co branded card?
What are their approvals and SL like?
Thanks
Sure, @Blender. Hotel programs (and airline programs) offer "Elite" benefits at various tiers, which offer greater value-added as you climb to the next level. Some hotels also have "lifetime elite" status levels for which a member can qualify which negates the requirement to spend x/nights per year to achieve/maintain your status level. The normal way with most hotel programs to get a higher "Elite" status is to stay more nights per year. Some chains may also have a dollar-spend requirement for certain higher levels.
Hotel credit cards can help achieve elite status with fewer stays at the property. They may award automatic elite status at a certain level, and sometimes also award a certain number of night credits towards a higher elite status. Take my situation with Marriott. Marriott elite levels are Member; then Silver; then Gold; then Platinum; then Titanium; then Ambassador Elite. My old $95 AF Chase Boundless card awarded automatic Silver status plus it gave 15 elite night stay credits. Normally to achieve Silver requires 10 paid nights. Gold requires 25 paid nights. So with the Boundless card, I received Silver status and could move up to Gold with just 15 more nights. Currently, my higher-AF AMEX Bonvoy Brilliant gives me automatic Platinum status plus 25 elite nights. (Those cannot be stacked with other personal credit card free nights; however, they can be stacked with my AMEX Bonvoy Business's 15 nights.). So between the two cards, I have (40) elite night credits and automatic Platinum. Platinum normally takes 50 paid night stays. So now, I'm just 35 nights a year away from achieving the higher Titanium status (which would normally take 75 paid nights.). See how all that works?
And what do you get for your status? It depends by the chain, but it's common to receive additional points per dollar spent in-hotel. My Marriott Platinum status awards me 50% more points on every stay, plus late check-out, early check-in, free enhanced wifi, complimentary full hot breakfast at some properties where other guests are excluded, member support hotline, room upgrades, and more. And if you have a hotel credit credit card, you may also earn hotel points at a high return when you charge your stay on that hotel card.
To see the elite levels and read about the Choice Privileges elite program, go to >THIS LINK<.
WF can be somewhat relationship-oriented but there's no requirement to set up a deposit relationship for this card. I'm more unsure with your FICOs in the 670-range with where their cutoff lies on FICO. You may want to do some research in the approval or application archives to see at what FICO members have been approved or denied. Cobranded credit cards are sometimes an easier approval than core cards with some lenders since the brand sponsor has a vested interest in making sure their customers get a fair chance at earning the credit card to incentivize relationship and spending. The lender may relax their underwriting slightly to open the door. This is just a general observation from what I've seen, so check for data points to see how this pans out with the Choice Privileges cards.
Starting Limits are all about overall profile for every lender. With WF, I've seen low SL approvals but also some in the $30K to $50K range. WF tends to be moderate in my opinion. If you've gotten $5K on other recent approvals, they may fall in that general range, +/-. Not greatly above or below. They may be a little sensitive to recent credit-seeking but I don't know of any specific x/24 type parameters that have been documented. Basically, I wouldn't apply to them with lol/24 but lower numbers are probably best. I've found with most lenders that if you're within Chase's 5/24 rule, you're probably good for them too as long as all of those 5 aren't in the last six months!
Yes, you explained that perfectly. Thank you again!
Im gardening til 700, which i thought would be before years end but not sure now. I do like this card tho.
Figured Id see before opening a WF checking with a $300 SUB.
@AyaMai wrote:Thank you for such detailed response.
No problem! Though I could have been much, much more brief and gotten 80% of the message across:
- P2 and I stay at hotels decently often, including all major hotel chains to attain the best value, which means hotel cards tend to be great for us
- Hotel cards with AFs that can be recouped via points offer increased flexibility, e.g. Best Western, Choice, and Wyndham, since points are not use 'em or lose 'em like certificates
- Best Western Premier can be great for non-category, provided one is willing to spend $5k every 12 billing cycles
But, as you can see, I am not great at brevity 