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@kdm31091 wrote:
@bch238 wrote:
@jsucool76 wrote:
I disagree but that's just my 0.02
you don't NEED to fly every year. can just buy airline gift cards and save them up for a vacation. that's an effective use of the airline credit. that's $500 the first year! already passing the annual fee. aspirations for travelling aren't forcing anyone to overspend, and you don't need to be a big spender to reap the rewards of the credit card industry. you just need to know how to play the game.
spending 3000$ in 3 months is not "big spending" but it will get you up to $800 off the signup bonus alone. maybe the poster doesn't fly every year, but $1300 in free airfare means they can fly somewhere, all with only spending $3000 for the bonus, and a $450 fee.
once again, you spend $450 and you get $1300
#AnyoneCanDoIt #YouDontNeedToOverspendNobody is "forced" to do anything. It is a choice. My advice was to choose not to allow aspirational spend factor into your credit decisions. And a lot of people don't follow that advice, regardless of their income. Many end up strapped or bankrupt. With regard to saving up for airfare every year, you fail to consider that that might be done only to feed aspirational travel that otherwise wouldn't happen. So you get the subsidized airfare. Great. Then you need a hotel. And you need to eat out. Vacations are expensive. And for many, $450 a year is a hell of a lot of money to lay out on a credit card fee. If you have a family income of $80,000 gross, that is a huge chunk of discretionary after-tax income, assuming you are (a) saving for retirement, (b) insuring your health, (c) insuring your car and home/possessions, (d) saving for a home, (e) paying for kids, (f) saving for kids' education, etc.
Exactly. Thank you for such a good post. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I have no problem with people who want to play the game. The problem is sometimes they do not grasp that others may not be able or willing to do the same thing, and that's fine! $450 is a lot of money - period. It's fine if you benefit from paying that AF and it works for you. For others? Maybe they don't have that extra money, or if they do they don't want to spend it on a travel card.
Excellent point too that the poster is failing to consider that many people obtain such a card and go on trips they otherwise wouldn't, thus they are overspending which is exactly what the issuer wants. They subsidize your airfare and you're encouraged to take more trips, inevitably spend more money....this is all part of the issuer's plan. They are not your friend. They want to make MONEY!
If you are seriously already planning a trip, I can see obtaining a card to help pay for it or get the free airfare or whatever although honestly just plain old saving up your money the "old fashioned" way is perfectly fine too. However, getting a card because of "future possible trips" is a temptation to overspend to earn more rewards towards the trips. Rewards are psychological. People chase them and wind up spending more in the process. Issuers are well aware of this and love seeing it happen. This is why they offer them. To make money!
1. I'm not fine paying the annual fees, that is why I get them waived, HOWEVER, I'd say spending $450 for an $800 plane ticket is well worth it, no matter who you are. Yes, things at your destination cost money, but no once is forcing you to do spend money there. Say you get the ritz card with the 140k offer for $395. That card gives you gold status, which gets you LOUNGE ACCESS at full service hotels. This can make up for most of if not all of your meals, which means you dont need to spend money on dining. If you choose to, that's your fault, and not my problem. I'm not here to manage your finances. I'm here to explain how these cards can benefit you.
2. I obtain these cards and go on trips I otherwise wouldn't but they don't really end up costing me money. Going on a trip you didn't plan on doesn't automatically mean you're overspending. Planning things out can save you both time and money. If someone chooses to travel without planning that is THEIR fault, not the credit card companies fault. I'm not saying credit card companies are the most benevolent things in the world, but you can't blame them for someone else making THEIR OWN decision to spend more money than they can afford to. If I choose to go out and spend $10,000 on dinner and drinks for 40 people because it'll earn me $800 in points on my citi forward/prestige combo, that isn't the banks fault. That's my fault. Playing the credit card game is being able to take advantage of cards while also living within your means. If you can't do that, then get out of the game.
/endrant
@jsucool76 wrote:
@kdm31091 wrote:
@bch238 wrote:
@jsucool76 wrote:
I disagree but that's just my 0.02
you don't NEED to fly every year. can just buy airline gift cards and save them up for a vacation. that's an effective use of the airline credit. that's $500 the first year! already passing the annual fee. aspirations for travelling aren't forcing anyone to overspend, and you don't need to be a big spender to reap the rewards of the credit card industry. you just need to know how to play the game.
spending 3000$ in 3 months is not "big spending" but it will get you up to $800 off the signup bonus alone. maybe the poster doesn't fly every year, but $1300 in free airfare means they can fly somewhere, all with only spending $3000 for the bonus, and a $450 fee.
once again, you spend $450 and you get $1300
#AnyoneCanDoIt #YouDontNeedToOverspendNobody is "forced" to do anything. It is a choice. My advice was to choose not to allow aspirational spend factor into your credit decisions. And a lot of people don't follow that advice, regardless of their income. Many end up strapped or bankrupt. With regard to saving up for airfare every year, you fail to consider that that might be done only to feed aspirational travel that otherwise wouldn't happen. So you get the subsidized airfare. Great. Then you need a hotel. And you need to eat out. Vacations are expensive. And for many, $450 a year is a hell of a lot of money to lay out on a credit card fee. If you have a family income of $80,000 gross, that is a huge chunk of discretionary after-tax income, assuming you are (a) saving for retirement, (b) insuring your health, (c) insuring your car and home/possessions, (d) saving for a home, (e) paying for kids, (f) saving for kids' education, etc.
Exactly. Thank you for such a good post. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I have no problem with people who want to play the game. The problem is sometimes they do not grasp that others may not be able or willing to do the same thing, and that's fine! $450 is a lot of money - period. It's fine if you benefit from paying that AF and it works for you. For others? Maybe they don't have that extra money, or if they do they don't want to spend it on a travel card.
Excellent point too that the poster is failing to consider that many people obtain such a card and go on trips they otherwise wouldn't, thus they are overspending which is exactly what the issuer wants. They subsidize your airfare and you're encouraged to take more trips, inevitably spend more money....this is all part of the issuer's plan. They are not your friend. They want to make MONEY!
If you are seriously already planning a trip, I can see obtaining a card to help pay for it or get the free airfare or whatever although honestly just plain old saving up your money the "old fashioned" way is perfectly fine too. However, getting a card because of "future possible trips" is a temptation to overspend to earn more rewards towards the trips. Rewards are psychological. People chase them and wind up spending more in the process. Issuers are well aware of this and love seeing it happen. This is why they offer them. To make money!
1. I'm not fine paying the annual fees, that is why I get them waived, HOWEVER, I'd say spending $450 for an $800 plane ticket is well worth it, no matter who you are. Yes, things at your destination cost money, but no once is forcing you to do spend money there. Say you get the ritz card with the 140k offer for $395. That card gives you gold status, which gets you LOUNGE ACCESS at full service hotels. This can make up for most of if not all of your meals, which means you dont need to spend money on dining. If you choose to, that's your fault, and not my problem. I'm not here to manage your finances. I'm here to explain how these cards can benefit you.
2. I obtain these cards and go on trips I otherwise wouldn't but they don't really end up costing me money. Going on a trip you didn't plan on doesn't automatically mean you're overspending. Planning things out can save you both time and money. If someone chooses to travel without planning that is THEIR fault, not the credit card companies fault. I'm not saying credit card companies are the most benevolent things in the world, but you can't blame them for someone else making THEIR OWN decision to spend more money than they can afford to. If I choose to go out and spend $10,000 on dinner and drinks for 40 people because it'll earn me $800 in points on my citi forward/prestige combo, that isn't the banks fault. That's my fault. Playing the credit card game is being able to take advantage of cards while also living within your means. If you can't do that, then get out of the game.
/endrant
And your post seems to assume you will always "get them waived". To be honest, you come off a bit entitled sounding. "Oh, I get my AFs waived!" That isn't going to work forever and at some point, you're going to have to pay the AFs, which is my whole point with not everyone can justify it - and that's okay! There is no need to defend it into oblivion. If it works for you, do it. It doesn't mean it works for everyone or that everyone should buy airline GCs or this or that.
Everyone has something that works for them and it may not be identical to what works for you, that's all. And if you are going on trips you otherwise wouldn't because of credit cards, IMO, that's exactly what the issuer wants you to do and you will end up spending more over time -- that's a fact -- free airfare doesn't mean free trip. Issuers know that people will chase after points and invariably spend more while doing so. This is why they are offered.
But you are right on one count. It's personal responsibility and one's spend has to be controlled by their own decisions. However, getting a bunch of CCs and chasing points may not be the right decision for them to help them control spend.
And despite what you insist, not everyone will "get the AFs waived". You need to ASSUME that you are going to be paying them. If you get it waived once, fine. It won't work forever. They exist for a reason. You can't just "get them waived" because you feel you are special. I'm not trying to attack you, but AFs are a reality, not something you get out of forever. You will sooner or later pay the AFs on your cards and maybe at that point you won't be able to justify them.
In my personal opinion, for those who are interested in rewards but not necessarily looking to maximize every possible benefit and reward, there are some cards that are better for certain income levels. I say this because I am one of those people who does not have the time nor the desire to spend a significant amount of time trying to maximize each benefit of every card. In my case, I spend a lot of money each year on travel and dining (mostly work, but some personal). I like cards that give me rewards for those items, therefore, I tend to put most of my spending on Amex Plat, Amex Delta and Merril Accolades. Those 3 cards alone total over $1000 in annual fees. I get many thousands (if not tens of thousands) over that in rewards every year, either in cash, miles or upgrades at hotels/airlines just for having and using the cards.
In comparison, someone who is making 50-60k a year and putting all of their normal spending through any of those cards will recoup the annual fees, but in the end, will not be getting 5k back in rewards. Of course you can get any card you want or any card that you think fits your needs best, but I dont agree with the premise that all cards are created equal for all income levels. You'll get rewards, but whether or not theyre worth it in the long run is dependent on the spending multiplier.
Again, in my opinion, for someone who doesnt travel, doesnt have a desire to travel and makes 50-60k a year, use a card that offers a flat % back or several that give you a higher % on certain categories. I think that is a better way of going after rewards for the average user. If you have the extra time and want to maximize every possible benefit, than jsucool's advice is vaild and valuable. Its all about personal preference and how much effort you want to put into reaping the rewards of each card.
@jsucool76 wrote:
I disagree but that's just my 0.02
you don't NEED to fly every year. can just buy airline gift cards and save them up for a vacation. that's an effective use of the airline credit. that's $500 the first year! already passing the annual fee. aspirations for travelling aren't forcing anyone to overspend, and you don't need to be a big spender to reap the rewards of the credit card industry. you just need to know how to play the game.
spending 3000$ in 3 months is not "big spending" but it will get you up to $800 off the signup bonus alone. maybe the poster doesn't fly every year, but $1300 in free airfare means they can fly somewhere, all with only spending $3000 for the bonus, and a $450 fee.
once again, you spend $450 and you get $1300
#AnyoneCanDoIt #YouDontNeedToOverspend
You lost me at #. Word of advise, keep that on Facebook.
@Lyythine wrote:In my personal opinion, for those who are interested in rewards but not necessarily looking to maximize every possible benefit and reward, there are some cards that are better for certain income levels. I say this because I am one of those people who does not have the time nor the desire to spend a significant amount of time trying to maximize each benefit of every card. In my case, I spend a lot of money each year on travel and dining (mostly work, but some personal). I like cards that give me rewards for those items, therefore, I tend to put most of my spending on Amex Plat, Amex Delta and Merril Accolades. Those 3 cards alone total over $1000 in annual fees. I get many thousands (if not tens of thousands) over that in rewards every year, either in cash, miles or upgrades at hotels/airlines just for having and using the cards.
In comparison, someone who is making 50-60k a year and putting all of their normal spending through any of those cards will recoup the annual fees, but in the end, will not be getting 5k back in rewards. Of course you can get any card you want or any card that you think fits your needs best, but I dont agree with the premise that all cards are created equal for all income levels. You'll get rewards, but whether or not theyre worth it in the long run is dependent on the spending multiplier.
Again, in my opinion, for someone who doesnt travel, doesnt have a desire to travel and makes 50-60k a year, use a card that offers a flat % back or several that give you a higher % on certain categories. I think that is a better way of going after rewards for the average user. If you have the extra time and want to maximize every possible benefit, than jsucool's advice is vaild and valuable. Its all about personal preference and how much effort you want to put into reaping the rewards of each card.
Couldn't agree more ![]()
@Anonymous wrote:So, I've been debating whether or not to apply for a high-end card. However, I'm not entirely sure if it's appropriate given my income.
For example, the Citi Prestige is extremely attractive. But the AF is 500 dollars, nearly!
And, I am really liking the Amex Gold card. But, again, the AF is really high...
I make about 55k. Does the card type I SHOULD get, versus want, directly correlate with how much income I have? I don't wanna get something that's more appropriate for a person who makes upwards of 100k, or so... Been curious about this for a while. I have the CSP, Marriot Rewards Premier, and the Venture, now. But, the AFs on those don't seem so unmanagable, considering the great rewards structure. And, they aren't hundreds of dollars.
What do you guys think? What's your advice or experience?
What you "should" do has nothing to do with annual income, unless you were to say that you wanted the Centurion Card. It depends on what your spending habbits are and what you can afford. If you were to have your income and have $20k a year in bills and could afford the annual fee, then go for it. If you had your income and had $40k a year in bills and were struggling to pay your debt, I would say, In No Way Apply For That Card! It also depends on what rewards you like, are you going for points, miles, or cash back?
I would think about what you are looking for, what you can afford (AF wise) and what fits your needs the best.
@jsucool76 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:If you can justify it, by all means. I'm still debating over a couple of them since the AF's are all about 500. I can't see giving someone 500 just for the card.
You're not giving them $500 for a card. You're giving them between $400-$500 for more money back
Ritz gave me what I estimate at about $1800-$2000 in value on the signup bonus alone. Breakfast at my first hotel as a gold elite (from the ritz card) was $40 per person, there was 3 of us, and we were there for breakfast 5 days. That's $600 on just ONE STAY savings in breakfast since we got free breakfast in the executive lounge. Then there was the $600 in airline gift cards I bought and was reimbursed for. All in all (not counting any points earned through spend, or the 10% bonus on points earned through spend) thats between $3000 and $3200 in value for $395 my first year (which I then got waived). Gold status alone is enough for me to keep this card. Don't forget PRIMARY rental insurance.
Prestige is $450 (a bit more expensive) but you get the $250 airline credit (twice in each cardmember year if you time it right), so $500 there. 4th night free on any hotel booking through CWT (cant even put a price on that one), 3 free rounds of golf a year (Some of the trump courses here are priced at $450 when looking at the golfswitch portal), 50,000 thank you points (worth $800 when redeemed for american airlines/us air flights), elite status with sixt, national, and avis....list goes on. Just on the airline credit and signup bonus you've got $1300
@Anonymous plat gets the signup bonus (normally 40k but if you get the 100k offer you're even better off), the $200 airline credit, amex centurion lounges ($50 a visit if you don't have a plat card), SPG gold status, some car rental elite status as well (I wanna say national, avis, and enterprise, but I could be wrong), Signup bonus conservatively valued at $400, (or $1000 @ the 100k offer), plus $400 in airline credits is $800 (or $1400 with the 100k offer). Add in the FHR program and once again, set with only a few of the benefits.
That's only a couple of benefits of each card easily giving you the value of the annual fee.
Thank you for writing that out, very informative.
@jsucool76 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:If you can justify it, by all means. I'm still debating over a couple of them since the AF's are all about 500. I can't see giving someone 500 just for the card.
You're not giving them $500 for a card. You're giving them between $400-$500 for more money back
Ritz gave me what I estimate at about $1800-$2000 in value on the signup bonus alone. Breakfast at my first hotel as a gold elite (from the ritz card) was $40 per person, there was 3 of us, and we were there for breakfast 5 days. That's $600 on just ONE STAY savings in breakfast since we got free breakfast in the executive lounge. Then there was the $600 in airline gift cards I bought and was reimbursed for. All in all (not counting any points earned through spend, or the 10% bonus on points earned through spend) thats between $3000 and $3200 in value for $395 my first year (which I then got waived). Gold status alone is enough for me to keep this card. Don't forget PRIMARY rental insurance.
Are you sure this isn't an overestimation and an attempt at justification. When was the last time you spent $120 on a breakfast for 3? Primary rental insurance also doesn't apply when you own a car in the United States (and with it, a car insurance). Also, CSP gives you that at $400 a year less.