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EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

Every time I use it is a bit of a surprise. Frankly a lot of places didn't make the deadline, likely more than people were expecting.

Message 11 of 65
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations


@Open123 wrote:

@Anonymous wrote:

A Saturday reading material for ya'll (if you haven't read it yet) 

he FBI warns of weaknesses in chip-and-sign credit card systems


The issue I have with "chip & pin" is that the adoption potentially chips away at consumer protections.  To prove charges were made by me, a Merchant/Bank needs to provide a physical slip with my signature authorizing the charge.  If this doesn't match or if it isn't provided, they lose.

 

What if we adopt a pin, and a thief guesses my pin?  Maybe I used my b'day?  Maybe I had written it down to keep from forgetting?  Maybe it was compromised another way?  So, if a correct pin was entered, for whatever reason, is it now "assumed" I'm liable for the charges?  If the latter is the case, I will either (1) refuse to use a chip & pin, or (2) stop using CCs altogether, if chip & pin becomes the standard.

 

Even abroad, I have an intense disliking for chip & pin, and avoid it, if I can.  And, I don't get this "let's follow the world" thing.  We run to the beat of our own drum in this country.  As my Father used to say, "I don't live in the world, I live in friggin New York city."


Considering a) there are known vulnerabilities with PIN the way most banks implement it and b) changes in consumer liability would require changes to federal law, I don't think that itself should be grounds to prefer chip and signature. However, since stores can waive signature for small amounts and can't do so for PIN, there can be a speed advantage* with the former. That might be worthwhile for some.

 

BTW the ABA actually made the FBI take down that notice "to clarify it". The whole whinefest from retailers is amusing, especially since they're not going to get any increased liability just because they accepted a card without a PIN.

 

*Mostly domestically. Foreign merchants tend not to waive it regardless of the amount.

Message 12 of 65
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

I've seen more than several stores which HAVE the EMV hardware installed (chip reader) yet still don't accept EMV cards. This is ridiculous and we are already years behind the rest of the world in EMV acceptance. Why are retailers delaying implementation further even when they ALREADY have the needed hardware?

 

Thankfully Walmart is on board and has been with EMV machines installed for months now.

 

Also, the major card issuers announced the liability shift in 2012-- that was 3 years ago. No sympathy for retailers who haven't gotten on board by now.

Message 13 of 65
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations


@Anonymous wrote:

I've seen more than several stores which HAVE the EMV hardware installed (chip reader) yet still ask, or let, the customer slide their card. This is ridiculous and we are already years behind the rest of the world in EMV acceptance. Why are retailers delaying implementation further even when they ALREADY have the needed hardware?

 

Thankfully Walmart is on board and has been with EMV machines installed for months now.

 

Also, the major card issuers announced the liability shift in 2012-- that was 3 years ago. No sympathy for retailers who haven't gotten on board by now.


I have some sympathy for small businesses, actually. They're at the mercy of their merchant providers for the correct software to turn it on even if they have the correct terminals for it, and those providers have seriously dropped the ball there. The merchant providers also didn't really bother to train merchants on the new equipment either, so a lot don't even know that they can take NFC payments too for instance.

Message 14 of 65
Open123
Super Contributor

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations


@Anonymous wrote:

Considering a) there are known vulnerabilities with PIN the way most banks implement it and b) changes in consumer liability would require changes to federal law, I don't think that itself should be grounds to prefer chip and signature. However, since stores can waive signature for small amounts and can't do so for PIN, there can be a speed advantage* with the former. That might be worthwhile for some.


I had recall reading of a few cases in Europe where court ruled a correct pin # was sufficient to prove a person had made the charges, and therefore financially responsible for them.  I'm not sure where the links were, but I'm sure some better at searching (I really hate searching for stuff) may unearth them.

 

If we, in America, were to begin a widespread adoption of chip & pin, I'd like to see either a judicial precedent or a revision in Federal law to pace with technology, and clearly stipulate that a correct pin # "in of itself" isn't proof a legitimate charge.  Let's not allow the Banks and Merchants to prey on our fears and shift the burden to us, especially since we currently have ZERO fraud liability.

 

In other words, until I'm liable for fraud, I couldn't care less about it.  Since it's the Merchants and Banks problem, just don't inconvenience me with ID checks, overly sensitive fraud algorithms, and "trojan horses" to shift the burden to unsuspecting consumers.

Message 15 of 65
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations


@Anonymous wrote:

 

BTW the ABA actually made the FBI take down that notice "to clarify it". 


Within that article is a link which contains the (to me!) interesting info:

 

At Visa, executives claimed that 57% of U.S. consumers now have at least one chip card in their wallet, but conceded it will take two to five years for card adoption to top 90%. Visa said it had issued 151 million chip-embedded debit and credit cards as of Sept. 15, about 21% of Visa’s total.

 

So up to 5 years to reach just 90%!  Not exactly a flash cut.

Message 16 of 65
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations

I'm not sure. We're allowed to dispute an online charge that otherwise isn't caught by the banks as fraudulent, so I don't understand why they would give us a harder time disputing EMV PIN transactions.
Message 17 of 65
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations


@Anonymous wrote:
I'm not sure. We're allowed to dispute an online charge that otherwise isn't caught by the banks as fraudulent, so I don't understand why they would give us a harder time disputing EMV PIN transactions.

That brings up a good point--has anyone had issues disputing debit card transactions? At least some of those used a PIN, right?

Message 18 of 65
Open123
Super Contributor

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations


@Anonymous wrote:
I'm not sure. We're allowed to dispute an online charge that otherwise isn't caught by the banks as fraudulent, so I don't understand why they would give us a harder time disputing EMV PIN transactions.

With your secret pin # used for the transaction, how will you prove it wasn't you?

Message 19 of 65
Open123
Super Contributor

Re: EMV Liability Shift: Your Observations


@Anonymous wrote:

@Anonymous wrote:
I'm not sure. We're allowed to dispute an online charge that otherwise isn't caught by the banks as fraudulent, so I don't understand why they would give us a harder time disputing EMV PIN transactions.

That brings up a good point--has anyone had issues disputing debit card transactions? At least some of those used a PIN, right?


I'd imagine, if a pin were used, you'd have a heck of a time avoiding the liability.

Message 20 of 65
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