How does one get off the "Egyptian" list at PenFed?

[NRB525]

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@myjourney wrote:

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@Thomas_Thumb wrote:

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@myjourney wrote:

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@NRB525 wrote:

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@cem13 wrote:

My story is even better.  I have $5K Visa Siggy and $5K AMEX with PenFed.  I use the Visa Siggy as my back up card to NFCU because it is my only Siggy.  I run about $100 per month on the card and always PIF.

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A guess here; with the $5k limit and ~$100 per month over many months, you haven't shown PenFed that you need more credit.

If it were me? I'd go ahead and transfer $3k to the $5k PenFed offer, take advantage of the low APR, and pay down the remainder on the other source card, where it sits, wherever that is.

The belief that 90% utilization will "tank your score" is something of an urban myth. How many points do you expect it will cost? I've maxed out many a BT offer, to 90%+, and my scores are always within a range. They were lower due to overall high utilization, but one card carrying a large amount will cost you only a few points. It won't be a 100 point event.

Then later, in the long run, because you will have shown PenFed the ability to utilize their $5k CL and pay it down, your chances of getting a CLI are much improved.

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This is a surprise coming from you and I have to truly disagree 

There's no myth whatsoever here 

Fico looks at CC debt in 2 ways 

1) overall UTL of all cards

2) each individual cards UTL 

Anything over 70-75% on a card is considered maxed out and reflected in scoring 

Having overall UTL of 90% or having 1 card over 90% will certainly ding your scores and I might add it's a MAJOR ding 

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A card is not considered to be in "max out" territory until utilization is something North of 85%. Really not sure if there is a hard line but, 70% to 75% does not represent a "max out". Will score be adversely affected by high utilization on one card?

The correct answer is that it depends on the profile. In 3/2014 I allowed a $4000 CL card report a balance of $3202 (80%). My Fico 8 score change was exactly zero points. I have a total of 5 revolving ccs and one AMEX charge card. For the above example, my AG UT% remained under 5% with 5 of 6 cards reporting balances according to my TU credit report.

In NRB525's case, he has in excess of 20 active cc accounts as I recall. If one of his low, $500 CL cards, reports a very high UT% I would frankly be surprised if his score changed much.  The affect of the card's balance on AG UT% would be negligible.

If someone has 3 cards and allows one to report 90% utilization, I would not be surprised to see a 20 to 30 point drop depending on the resulting AG UT%

General advice to a poster really needs to be based on that person's profile.

The Fico 8 model weighs aggregate utilization more heavily than individual card utilization. Fico 4 mistakenly - IMO gave excessive weight to individual cards. At the end of the day, managing overall credit is key and allowing a card to report a high utilization to take advantage of some offer does not represent high risk. Depending on one's scorecard assignment, score implications associated with individual card utilization are weighed differently.

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Some good points in your post and we've established all profiles are different  thus so are the effects ....However

This came up so much that maybe a couple of years ago we went to the expert for a deciding answer ....which was Fico's own and renowned author and spokes person on Fico scoring etc etc (Barry) and his answer was at the time ....Before 08 model now granted but 

Maxed out is 70-75% 

So sorry I'll have to go with Barry on this one 

FYI also I have over 25+ CC's on my CR's 3 of which are closed with long history as well and still his profile and mine can be miles apart....and last month I posted a 8848.00 balance on a 9k card ...cost me 5 points and those 5 points plus 1 came back this month after PIF

So again his profile and my profile are not the norm here.... 

Edit to add ....this is you correct what changed in 6 months or is it a YMMV when you feel then need? 

http://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Understanding-FICO-Scoring/Waiting-for-the-hammer-to-drop/m-p/406456...

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That post in June is entirely consistenty with what I am saying in this thread. I haven't ever changed my tune about this. If you percieve something different, please let me know what it is.

The previous thread was dealing with a low credit limit of $2k that the poster wanted to raise. My advice: Continue to charge it up (max it out), let the statement report, pay it in full after the statement prints, then charge it up (max it out) again. I did this with my AMEX Delta at $2k and got a $1k auto CLI the second time I got within about $50 of the limit.

The poster who interjected in this thread was bringing up an issue with PenFed, so it's related to the Egyptian discussion because that is the feedback on recon. That poster (cem13 who still has that remnant in this exchange) did not want to do a BT to PenFed because they "only" had a $5k limit for cem13 to use. They were not willing to double it. cem13 was afraid the FICO score would "tank". My advice in cem13's case was to transfer $3k to that $5k limit to start showing PenFed how cem13 can handle that balance. The $3k will get a lower APR while it's being paid down, and in 6 months or a year, when cem13 goes back to ask PenFed for a CLI, PenFed is much more likely to give a CLI. Currently, cem13 only was putting $100 a month through the card. This is not a rebuilder. This is someone with a $5k CL, and a few other cards of similar magnitude.

[myjourney]

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@NRB525 wrote:

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@myjourney wrote:

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@Thomas_Thumb wrote:

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@myjourney wrote:

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@NRB525 wrote:

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@cem13 wrote:

My story is even better.  I have $5K Visa Siggy and $5K AMEX with PenFed.  I use the Visa Siggy as my back up card to NFCU because it is my only Siggy.  I run about $100 per month on the card and always PIF.

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A guess here; with the $5k limit and ~$100 per month over many months, you haven't shown PenFed that you need more credit.

If it were me? I'd go ahead and transfer $3k to the $5k PenFed offer, take advantage of the low APR, and pay down the remainder on the other source card, where it sits, wherever that is.

The belief that 90% utilization will "tank your score" is something of an urban myth. How many points do you expect it will cost? I've maxed out many a BT offer, to 90%+, and my scores are always within a range. They were lower due to overall high utilization, but one card carrying a large amount will cost you only a few points. It won't be a 100 point event.

Then later, in the long run, because you will have shown PenFed the ability to utilize their $5k CL and pay it down, your chances of getting a CLI are much improved.

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This is a surprise coming from you and I have to truly disagree 

There's no myth whatsoever here 

Fico looks at CC debt in 2 ways 

1) overall UTL of all cards

2) each individual cards UTL 

Anything over 70-75% on a card is considered maxed out and reflected in scoring 

Having overall UTL of 90% or having 1 card over 90% will certainly ding your scores and I might add it's a MAJOR ding 

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A card is not considered to be in "max out" territory until utilization is something North of 85%. Really not sure if there is a hard line but, 70% to 75% does not represent a "max out". Will score be adversely affected by high utilization on one card?

The correct answer is that it depends on the profile. In 3/2014 I allowed a $4000 CL card report a balance of $3202 (80%). My Fico 8 score change was exactly zero points. I have a total of 5 revolving ccs and one AMEX charge card. For the above example, my AG UT% remained under 5% with 5 of 6 cards reporting balances according to my TU credit report.

In NRB525's case, he has in excess of 20 active cc accounts as I recall. If one of his low, $500 CL cards, reports a very high UT% I would frankly be surprised if his score changed much.  The affect of the card's balance on AG UT% would be negligible.

If someone has 3 cards and allows one to report 90% utilization, I would not be surprised to see a 20 to 30 point drop depending on the resulting AG UT%

General advice to a poster really needs to be based on that person's profile.

The Fico 8 model weighs aggregate utilization more heavily than individual card utilization. Fico 4 mistakenly - IMO gave excessive weight to individual cards. At the end of the day, managing overall credit is key and allowing a card to report a high utilization to take advantage of some offer does not represent high risk. Depending on one's scorecard assignment, score implications associated with individual card utilization are weighed differently.

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Some good points in your post and we've established all profiles are different  thus so are the effects ....However

This came up so much that maybe a couple of years ago we went to the expert for a deciding answer ....which was Fico's own and renowned author and spokes person on Fico scoring etc etc (Barry) and his answer was at the time ....Before 08 model now granted but 

Maxed out is 70-75% 

So sorry I'll have to go with Barry on this one 

FYI also I have over 25+ CC's on my CR's 3 of which are closed with long history as well and still his profile and mine can be miles apart....and last month I posted a 8848.00 balance on a 9k card ...cost me 5 points and those 5 points plus 1 came back this month after PIF

So again his profile and my profile are not the norm here.... 

Edit to add ....this is you correct what changed in 6 months or is it a YMMV when you feel then need? 

http://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Understanding-FICO-Scoring/Waiting-for-the-hammer-to-drop/m-p/406456...

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That post in June is entirely consistenty with what I am saying in this thread. I haven't ever changed my tune about this. If you percieve something different, please let me know what it is.

The previous thread was dealing with a low credit limit of $2k that the poster wanted to raise. My advice: Continue to charge it up (max it out), let the statement report, pay it in full after the statement prints, then charge it up (max it out) again. I did this with my AMEX Delta at $2k and got a $1k auto CLI the second time I got within about $50 of the limit.

The poster who interjected in this thread was bringing up an issue with PenFed, so it's related to the Egyptian discussion because that is the feedback on recon. That poster (cem13 who still has that remnant in this exchange) did not want to do a BT to PenFed because they "only" had a $5k limit for cem13 to use. They were not willing to double it. cem13 was afraid the FICO score would "tank". My advice in cem13's case was to transfer $3k to that $5k limit to start showing PenFed how cem13 can handle that balance. The $3k will get a lower APR while it's being paid down, and in 6 months or a year, when cem13 goes back to ask PenFed for a CLI, PenFed is much more likely to give a CLI. Currently, cem13 only was putting $100 a month through the card. This is not a rebuilder. This is someone with a $5k CL, and a few other cards of similar magnitude.

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Lol the link I posted had nothing to do with you my friend I assure you  .....But the poster who states however they feel any given day max is 75-80-85% tomorrow it maybe 60% who knows with him...in reviewing 2 minutes of his post I found multiple bad info statements that are being passed on like water on assumptions ....His

That was just the one post I found in less than 2 minutes 

All other info you and I talked about was mutual except terminology ...Myth and Major ding ....settled point and agreed upon 

[Thomas_Thumb]

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@myjourney wrote:

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Not the point here 

The message is clear be consitent in the info you feed others ....whereas you stated maxed out in this thread as 90% [85%] vs 6 months ago when you stated and I 

"Whenever a balance gets reported that is more than 75% (or 80%) of your credit line, it is viewed as maxed out by most Fico scoring models."

We don't need your scores here it has no bearing on the info you posted .

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myjourney,

The reason I posted my scores is that it certainly appeared you thought the 80% utilization I mentioned had impacted my Fico 08 score when in fact it had not.

With respect to the "max out" I did indeed consider max ouit to be around 75% to 80% for Fico 04 based on my Fico 04 score change back in mid 2015. However, over time I have adjusted my definition of "max out" upward as it relates to Fico 08 based on a composite of poster results. I consider a max out threshold to be the point where scores take a much more substantial hit.

I have not seen that in the 75% to 80% range with Fico 08. Thus, the upward revision. At the end of the day, max out is rather nebulous but, has the connotation of a step change in score. So yes, 85% or above is what I have come to define as "max out" associated with the Fico 08 model.

Ultimately, it is well known that influence of utilization is on a sliding scale.

[Imperfectfuture]

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@Thomas_Thumb wrote:

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@myjourney wrote:

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Not the point here 

The message is clear be consitent in the info you feed others ....whereas you stated maxed out in this thread as 90% [85%] vs 6 months ago when you stated and I 

"Whenever a balance gets reported that is more than 75% (or 80%) of your credit line, it is viewed as maxed out by most Fico scoring models."

We don't need your scores here it has no bearing on the info you posted .

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myjourney,

The reason I posted my scores is that it certainly appeared you thought the 80% utilization I mentioned had impacted my Fico 08 score when in fact it had not.

With respect to the "max out" I did indeed consider max ouit to be around 75% to 80% for Fico 04 based on my Fico 04 score change back in mid 2015. However, over time I have adjusted my definition of "max out" upward as it relates to Fico 08 based on a composite of poster results. I consider a max out threshold to be the point where scores take a much more substantial hit.

I have not seen that in the 75% to 80% range with Fico 08. Thus, the upward revision. At the end of the day, max out is rather nebulous but, has the connotation of a step change in score. So yes, 85% or above is what I have come to define as "max out" associated with the Fico 08 model.

Ultimately, it is well known that influence of utilization is on a sliding scale.

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False premise.  Scores at 850 may be above 850, that is just the FICO top.  Also, 770 with three cards, vs 770 with 20 cards yields different results even above 40%.  Then, those three cards could have really high limits, and be 20 years old, while the 20 cards vacillate between 5 & 10k, with AAoA 2 years, the 20 cards will go down more.

everyone has a different profile.  So under 4 years AAoA, much more affected by single card utilization, even with Fico 8 (I have seen it).

[Thomas_Thumb]

I have no arguement with profiles being scored differently based on how thick they are, how old and whether they are clean or not. Influence of factors depends on what scorecard the profile is associated with and what bin within a profile the factor is assigned to.

My main point was affect of high utilization on a card utilization  is profile dependent with regard to Fico credit score implications. Thus, the comment on NRB525's profile and my example relative to Fico 08. I try to answer questions with consideration given to the poster's profile (if such details are provided). Even so, experiences can cloud perspective - and perspective is not static.

This discussion got sidetracked on defining a specific "max out" which was unfortunate. If there is a sanctioned definition, I have been unaware of it.

[takeshi74]

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@Anonymous wrote:

Hello everyone. So I've had my PenFed credit cards since March of last year. At 8 mos I asked for a CLI and was declined, per one of their classic reasons: PYRAMIDING OF DEBTS. I've literally run at least $12k through those cards and most months have PIF. Both accts sit at zero balances, as they did when I apped for the CLI. I'm wondering, even with my stellar useage and payment history, if that tag they have on me will also keep me from getting an auto cli?

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Your usage of the account itself is not the cause of the pyramiding reason.  It's all about your credit profile, new accounts, debt, etc.  Never rely solely on usage of a given account despite the popular usage memes that are propagated by many here and other credit sites.  Your entire credit profile and income always matter with any creditor.  The one account is just part of your credit profile.

Based on forum posts I figured I'd get cited for pyramiding when I apped for the PPCR as I had a number of new accounts in the months prior to applying, however, my credit profile was apparently sufficient for my new accounts as it was approved, to my surprise and I was granted a limit that it still my highest by a good margin.  People will suggest X accounts, Y hard pulls etc but those numbers are going to depend on credit profile.

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@Anonymous wrote:

I'm wondering, even with my stellar useage and payment history, if that tag they have on me will also keep me from getting an auto cli?

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The pyramiding reason is not a cause.  It is an effect.  Your credit profile is the cause.  It is what can prevent you from getting CLI's.  If you want a CLI from a creditor then you'll have to address whatever concerns a creditor has with your profile.

[Anonymous]

I'm more worried from aa, or a NO with whenever particular lender I want to increase my business with over a FICO score drop. Often they go hand in hand it is not always the case. Funny observation here with some people getting limits cut with chase or barclays for example, but at the same time increasing their discover and their store cards which technically would be the same util, its not the results you want.

I wonder if pyramid is also simply way too many accounts regardless of what's going on with each one

[Anonymous]

My experience with Penfed is they always look at a bigger picture when looking at your credit report. They want to satisfy themselves about your intent, and they do this by independently deciphering how you use credit. Most consumers don't maneuver around credit products like people on here do. Penfed is very good about picking up on patterns that would seem designed to build a credit score quickly and purposefully. Any pattern shifts away from your old behavior stick out to them. I have found my best results with Penfed come when I am not paying attention to my credit and just maintain my usual pattern. No apps, no requested CLI's, no sudden util changes, no bouncing balances around, and no sudden activity on usually unused cards.

Six to 12 months of that and the pre approvals roll in with high CLIs. If you have an auto loan, you will often see generous preapprovals on car loans every anniversary of your loan.

When I spend time with my credit and consider BT offers, update my income profile which usually triggers CLI invites, start rotating cards in my wallet, open a new account, etc., Penfed picks up on changes, gets suspicious and start asking themselves why you are suddenly active. If they suspect you are looking for credit for scoring purposes or might be fiscally stressed, they won't increase their exposure with you. Unused credit lines can hurt Penfed. So can a maxed out card used by someone on the brink. They don't exist to help folks build enormous CLs. :-)

[Anonymous]

Chase viciously slashed CLs for us from 18k and 15k to 1.5k and 1k respectively during the Great Recession. There they sit to this day. Chase seems to have locked down these accounts indefinitely for CLIs. Chase definitely pulled back on their exposure since then. 

[NoAnchoviesPlease]

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@NoAnchoviesPlease wrote:

I'm not NRB525, but I have a vaguely similar anecdote. I had a $1k line of credit with Citibank (CheckingPlus, had it for almost a decade) unintentionally report $950 used after a while of no balance. That change cost me about 13 points. Overall that was about 1% of my total revolving credit lines so it didn't affect util by more than 1%. 

A week later a payoff of a $3k balance on another card gave me 23 points back.

Just anecdote, but I remember getting a headache from slamming my forehead into my desk when I saw that balance post. I was going to pay it a day earlier but forgot. 

I'm almost 60 points up from that low just a month ago, but it was definitely undesired.  

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Had this happen again this month thanks to some ill-planned balance transfers. Down 70 points in two days on Equifax. Total util amount and percent are both WAY down, but two cards (one which got a 4x CLI) reported high (an 80% on 5k and a 90% on 15k) and tanked EQ/EX for a while. 

Note to self, watch util even on BT.