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@designated_knitter wrote:So yesterday I posted in the synchrony closure thread about the differences between what VS 4 views as important vs what FICO considers important.
VS4 lists amount of debt and amount of available credit as most important.FICO lists payment history and amounts owed as most important.
My hypothesis (completely untested) is that Navy (and some other lenders like Synchrony) takes into account how much available credit you have and cares about that more than payment history.
This would explain why lower FICO scores get larger limits than the 800-club... if your scores are in the mid 600s you probably don't have a lot of available credit so the probability of you getting in over your head is lower than someone with access to over 100k in available credit. It also means that you're more like to use their card and make them money compared to others who have the mainstream Uber-high reward cards.
I suspect that they must calculate a "tipping point" amount of debt (based on DTI) that a profile can handle before it can no longer be sustained and BK becomes an option.
Since BK eligibility is based on amount of debt AND income, if you have low debt because of suppressed credit limits due to your credit scores but have high income, your ability to declare chapter 7 is low... even if you have a crappy payment history.
But if you have acquired a large amount of available credit because of a perfect payment history over 10 years or more but only moderate income that remains flat, then if things went south, you could run up huge debt with limited ability to repay and suddenly, your chances of burning lenders through BK7 is a very real possibility. One medical emergency or one layoff and suddenly your living off credit cards and can quickly reach a point of no return and BK is your only option.
This would also explain why members of the military are favored with higher limits and more favorable terms despite relatively modest income. Filing for bankruptcy can have significant impact on your military career and security clearances so you are more likely to gut it out if you can to avoid jeapordizing your career advancement.
Perfect payment history may not be the best predictor of risk... as they say with investments, past performance is not indicative of future potential. However, ability to repay is. I'm sure there are many folks out there who never missed a payment but then found their debt levels to be unsustainable and needing to pull the BK7 ripcord.
Again, just my humble and relatively uneducated opinion.
All that you wrote makes perfect sense. I have seen people file BK that I am wondering how in the world did they every get there. What troubles me personally is when someone files for bk they have a great job, and they just wasted their credit. Credit is a gift, use it to enhance and grow financially and be greatful to the lendeers that have loaned you assets. The formulas that lenders use to lend are strange at times and they have their formats and niche products that worked for them on a proven scale four fold. Having a forum like this helps others get in good and stay good. We have all had hiccups in our lives, but how we handle them is what makes a difference. Some lenders are better than others looking at your potential partnership, I am just trying to build that up so that I can enhance my life by building better partnerships. Thank you for sharing your info, I think your info is down right strong and well said.
@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:Honestly it would not surprise me at all if outcomes vary depending on which UW gets your app. Some of their decisions make zero sense on the surface. I have noticed that they do seem to like rebuilders quite a bit though. I started off with a $3K card in 9/2018 as a brand new member and they gave me a CLI to $7500 and a second card at $7200 plus a $500 CLOC in 12/2018 when my TU was around 640-650. My TCL was only $20K before I added NFCU and they gave me another $15,200 in credit in 3 months despite my annual income being around $18K. At the same time I would see people with 800 scores and six figure incomes getting declined for going for Flagship due to not meeting the $5K minimum SL and getting $1K limits on a cashRewards or More Rewards instead. To this day I still have more credit with them than anyone else, coming in at $28K, with an upper $18K income.
That gives me hope to know what's possible still with being a LIE'r myself, too. (Small but growing 😁😇) Thanks!
See that is exactly what I am speaking about. There is such a variety that you just set back and go wow wee. But when you see some with income that is very low and they get approvals your like whaaaat! I see on the forum those that have been turned down for dti issues with better scores but low disposable income. I get that, but there should be a balance and I really think at times its a numbers game for the lenders based on month end, loyal customers and building. I am in the building stage, I have decent income not top, but far from the bottom. My disposable income is solid and I have money saved. However, I am not where closed to where I want to be. I chose not to use credit car a very long time. Very bad mistake on my end, but changing now. I read about a guy whom came out of BK in one year, whe had about 125k in available credit. How does one do that? There are those that have never had a bk never missed a payment but can get up to 25k in total credit. It becomes a struggle for them. Good work on your end thanks for sharing.
I think it's somewhat random at times as well. They can certainly be generous to rebuilders, but that doesn't mean everyone with very good or great credit gets a raw deal. I've never had a late or any other derogs. My Flagship (first card with them, which people often suggest avoiding) was approved at $24k somewhere in the mid-700s and my More Rewards was approved at $25k somewhere in the lower 800s (too lazy to dig up my approval threads but pretty sure those scores are accurate), both while approaching 7 digits in available revolving credit and I've had several CLIs after surpassing that mark.
I'd love to figure this one out myself. I might be inclined to agree that it totally depends on the uw you get and their mood. I opened a checking, savings and mm account 4 months ago. I was denied on every credit card I applied for with them initially, at the time probably had about 10-15% total utilization. I opened the secured card and barely used it. I started pouring money into the savings/money market. Fast forward to a couple weeks ago at 91 days. I paid all my accounts to zero except one (AZEO) and 1% total utilization. I appled for platinum and instant approval at 7.5k (exactly 10% of the amount I put in for my income) my highest limit by about 3x, both when I joined and now my scores were in the mid 600 range. But others credit limits appear to be totally random, people with incomes half mine are getting huge 20k limits. So I have no idea what their story is.
Navy is definitely a different breed of lender and I don't know if any of us could ever completely crack their "code." Somehow, I think there is more method to the madness than simply which underwriter draws your file. I also think it's somewhat futile to compare Navy FCU results versus underwriting on the same credit profile with other lenders, since they just do things differently.
It does appear to me that Navy has a much more generous and receptive attitude to rebuilders than to solid profiles which have engaged in more than only light recent credit-seeking behavior. On the plus side, my general profile is veteran (which you'd think would be a plus with NFCU as a military-oriented CU), high FICO, high income, low relative DTI. On the potential "downside," I have a high TCL (but in line with income), a younger relationship with Navy (opened 11/2019,) and applied with Navy towards the end of many other recent applications. While I was approved with a relatively good $10K SL on card one, that was less than most of my other approvals around the same time. And then I was denied on card two. Before I started pursuing Navy, I never thought they were particularly sensitive to credit-seeking, but I think that's been a major contributing factor to my results with them. I was denied that card 2 with TU FICO of 850/850 and very high internal score of 427 (on a scale of 100 to 450.)
Here are my threads I started on my Navy process with many data points and trying to come to grips with how they think. Similar to my recent posting this week about what AMEX is thinking in terms of denying me a SUB on card number two, I'm slowly coming to a better appreciation of the nuances of different lender's focus during underwriting. Threads like these are helpful in consolidating our experiences to try to gain a better common understanding, so thanks @Anonymous.
@Anonymous wrote:
@spiritcraft1 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:Good morning MF Fam!
Just curious about how NFCU looks at each individual when they provide you with specific SL when applying for their credit cards. I know each credit profile is different, but I have seen such a a variation of approvals that I scratch my head all the time.
When getting that approval there is always feeling of pride upon not getting declined. Then, the second part kicks in when you see low limit approvals like 1k. If someone can share any DP's that would be great. Looking for info on SL $$$$ what does it mean.
$1,000 approvals
$3,000 approvals
$5,000 approvals
some
$8,000 approvals
Looking at credit files that some have mid 500 scores and their SL amounts are higher than those that have 700 scores. Please share the light. Thanks
There is zero rhyme or reason to their madness. They do have that secretive internal score which no one knows the workings and logic of. They will also approve a mid 500's TU09 score for $25k and then shoot down someone in the 800's. That is not always the case but it happens enough to be a very real thing. It my case, 3rd card, 843 TU 09, I was given $5k. I recon'd with a secure message and 6 days later they said... "Oh, our mistake, you actually deserve $25k". I don't think anyone knows what is going on with their algorithms but there is still a lot to like.
Some become frustrated at the process, but those that do not give up when in the long run. Their approvals are all over the board. I am glad you hit that 25k mark on your third card. I will apply for my second card in about two months. I am right at the 3 month mark with them, but I am waiting for three secure cards that I started with just under a year will hit that 13 month mark. When they do, I will apply for my second card and CLI for my first card.
I hope they find favor in me. I have a 3k SL cash reward that they approved based on a TU 624 score. Then I applied for their SSL loan with 5yr term and I took two months to pay it down just to see how the credit point increase wil work. I have not carried a balance with their credit card but use about 4500 a month with it and pay it down twice a month and it always reports zero balance on cycle. My problem I have is that my total utilization right now is zero I keep making a mistake of not leaving any balance on my credit cards. So I have to correct that starting this month.
You are right in their wheelhouse. Good luck, you are doing it right.
@Aim_High , then compare your experience and statement about better odds to rebuilders than solid profiles to my situation:
Aged profile (AoOA 14 years, average ~3 years), joined Navy Dec 2020. TU09 was 750s, $90k income, roughly $120k TCL, approved for $1k Platinum half an hour after $7k personal loan. Fast forward to 91/3 and bumped up to $3k on Platinum, but waited an extra month until my last derog fell off of TU, then apped for cashRewards and got instant approval for $25k. Lower age factors on my profile but still solid, far from rebuilding, kind of in the middle between rebuilding and Credit Jedi. $35k from them in four months.
I think they're so spread all over the place with approvals that it's very hard to nail down a pattern. I think in my case, having more than one credit product/type with them, plus savings and checking, and paying ahead on the loan by a couple months, must've made a nice difference in their internal score on me.
This is slightly off-topic, but I was just approved for the Sig Visa, 5k. Been a Navy member for about 8 mos, have a SS Loan, plus a 30k savings account. The interest rate on the card is 9.99%, right at the bottom. My Amex's are around 20%. I don't care about the rate, as I don't carry balances, but it seems obvious to me that the 30k in the savings account brought down the rate on the card.
@W261w261 wrote:This is slightly off-topic, but I was just approved for the Sig Visa, 5k. Been a Navy member for about 8 mos, have a SS Loan, plus a 30k savings account. The interest rate on the card is 9.99%, right at the bottom. My Amex's are around 20%. I don't care about the rate, as I don't carry balances, but it seems obvious to me that the 30k in the savings account brought down the rate on the card.
It may not have mattered as much as you think. My TU was 647 when I applied for my cashRewards in 2018 and it was still right around there when I got my Platinum 3 months later and I got the lowest APR on both with no money in my NFCU accounts.
@Anonymous wrote:@Aim_High , then compare your experience and statement about better odds to rebuilders than solid profiles to my situation:
Aged profile (AoOA 14 years, average ~3 years), joined Navy Dec 2020. TU09 was 750s, $90k income, roughly $120k TCL, approved for $1k Platinum half an hour after $7k personal loan. Fast forward to 91/3 and bumped up to $3k on Platinum, but waited an extra month until my last derog fell off of TU, then apped for cashRewards and got instant approval for $25k. Lower age factors on my profile but still solid, far from rebuilding, kind of in the middle between rebuilding and Credit Jedi. $35k from them in four months.
I think they're so spread all over the place with approvals that it's very hard to nail down a pattern. I think in my case, having more than one credit product/type with them, plus savings and checking, and paying ahead on the loan by a couple months, must've made a nice difference in their internal score on me.
Good points to add to the discussion, @Anonymous. And yes, I agree their approvals are spread all over the place. Do you recall what your new accounts and/or inquiries was at the time of your new membership with Navy as to me that seems a key part of the formula.
My comparison wasn't between rebuilders and all solid scores. I was pointing out that medium to high scores seem to get good results if they've been gardening but for those like myself who were actively-seeking, the results may be overall subpar. I've seen rebuilders acquire credit lines like your $35K or even higher at a faster rate than Navy has opened up to me ($22.5K in almost 18 months), and I think the reason is they were dissuaded by my recent credit history. Those rebuilders may only get $1K to $3K SLs on card one but get approved and much higher limits at 91/3 intervals on cards 2 and 3. However, they may also have not acquired a lot of other recent credit. I got a slightly higher initial limit but my overall credit-seeking probably led to a denial on card 2, even though I waited until my first card was over seven months old. Lesson learned: I thought Navy was a little more loose and easy, so I saved them towards the end of an app run, and that probably made the difference.