Recommendations for the near term of my long game for thin, young file?

[uncredited]

Thanks for the warm welcomes, and all the advice so far! This place is certainly a goldmine in the wild west of figuring this stuff out.

Some good, and interesting suggesteions here. I do think I still favor taking a lowest-risk-lowest-complexity approach (If you can't beat the lenders, join them in their risk aversion!). A few of you mentioned decent chances with Citi and Chase, which surprised me with such a tiny file. Seems like most do still feel Amex is probably a more likely in (but that one caution does give me pause...never can tell.) I've considered the credit unions options before. But I worry adding to the complexity by opening new savings/checking accounts and managing so much at once will end up leading to some mistake somewhere down the line that will cause a ding that a simpler route wouldn't have. It's a good suggestion, but when already looking at opening 4 accounts in 2 years on top of 3 existing bank accounts, adding checking/savings/moving funds around seems like a potential self inflicted wound from adding too much complexity at once. I could be overlooking a great option, but not biting off more than I can chew at once is paramount, otherwise it's all work for nothing!

Technically when I really analyze things there's only two cards that sort of maximize rewards for me at present,
1 BofA Customized Cash (basically works out as 3% on a decent portion of my spend. Easily maxed rw. I don't have checking/savings with them, so no bonus rw, and no easy in.)
2 FNBO Cobranded card. (Biggest of all potential rw for me today, but it's co-brand and it's FNBO...)

BofA doesn't sound like the easiest nut to crack with a thin file and no banking accounts with them. FNBO...A few of you recommended them for now, which surprises me, from all I've read about them they're one of the harder, more fickle nuts to crack as well (and a bit of a red tape menace getting started.)

By card, I think my current understanding/pros/cons are:

Amex: Most responses seem to favor their potential. Should have decent growth potential. Rewards are so-so currently, but in future could be good.

Citi: Seems slightly more likely or tied with chase, but maybe less likely than Amex? Decent growth potential.

Chase: Maybe less likely (but possibly better to get first due to inq.) The Flex is a decent card with rewards, really, quarterlies to compliment disco's quarterlies, plus 3% restaurant is a pretty decent mix. Wouldn't mind it, but it's not a strong enough desire for it to consider it if it's a riskier app. Also, have I heard right that chase is all hp cli? That could be a strong negative against them.

FNBO: A few of you suggested them which is surprising. I've had the impression they're kind of finnicky and a bit harder to manage. And also a red tape monster. However, if I went for them, then that cobrand is actually the most rewarding card for them vs the evergreen, though that could always change. I never pegged them for a "1 year, 1 card" file type of place. Are there anecdotes of them being thin file friendly elsewhere? AND, is a cobrand more or less likely to get a smooth approval with them, or anyone?

BofA CC: Sounds like they're definitely on the iffier side. IS that a "4th or 5th card" kind of lender more than early on, even more than Chase?

Of the above, is there an order that you'd all recommend? Meaning, like, is Chase better at the 2 year mark when you have 2 years history and 3 cards, or is chase better now with only 1 year of history and 1 card but 0 inq, same for the others? Also, how much does lender diversity count overall? EG. is it better, worse, or indifferent to, say, get an FNBO evergreen and an FNBO cobrand rather than do the FNBO cobrand and a Citi DC?

Also if I took the bigger risk and went for someone other than Amex first (BofA, Citi, Chase), how long would everyone recommend waiting before doing the next app (e.g. does that derail this interval for another 6 months, etc?)

And a few replies based on a few points for each of you:
@CYBERSAM X1 is interesting looking, never really heard about it before, but I've seen mentions here. Seems "too good to be true" and makes me uncertain long-term for it. No BofA banking account, so that won't help. FNBO, definitely shocked that's being mentioned so soon. And slightly worried about the cautionary tale on Amex. Seems to be the minority opinion, but sometimes that's the most important. On the up-side they keep soliciting me. On the down-side they solicited me even before I had a file...

@dragontears That's definitely food for thought. I'm not sure that's changed my mind on Amex/thin-friendly first, but it also does have me thinking...

@K-in-Boston I'll post the details on the grocery/Amex thing in a second post so this one doesn't get bloated more than it already is, but there's a bit of a mixed mind where Amex/grocery is concerned. I'm definitely not against it.

BofA, yeah while that's one of the most benficial rw cards, I do get the impression they're a little less reliable, and at this point in the file, it doesn't seem to be a wise point to reach for the stars and hope for the best, I'd definitely like to take the most pragmatic, if less rewarding approach where possible. Good info on Citi/Chase being more sensitive to new accounts. Though I wonder if it's a wash between new account sensitivity and 1/yr 1/acct?

@Anonymous Hmm, interesting about the 6-mo to a year. So do you think the 1 card every 6 months is too aggressive and recommend spacing them out over 2 more years instead of 1? Though that will hurt AAoA for much longer.

@KLEXH25 That's an interesting idea of getting 2 at once and garden for a year. The plan sounds appealing, but I would fear that would look like credit seeking to the second UW. The basis of the idea makes some sense, but my knee-jerk reaction is that there's a reason I haven't heard that before. I wonder if anyone else can weigh in on that? I'm definitely as risk-averse as any lender, haha, so....I guess I'm in good company. In my next live I'll be an underwriter!

@EAJuggalo It's weird with the dating. The scorecard always says it's from the 18th of every month, but the util never matches the balance on the 18th of the month. Originally I assumed it would be near the closing date, but it's not, at least as dated. I've been pretty much doing a payment to cover most but not all of the current balance (so it's never 0% util), and then avoiding adding charges through the 26th (to clear the statement date) out of not knowing where the balance is reported. It's been working fine that way, but it's a hassle. Also a pain because a lot of transactions tend to not post for days. That's one reason I want to work on a much bigger CLI, simply so I don't have to micromanage util all the time and can actually use auto-pay. I have a 2 week period now I micromanage and pay it 2x a week if I use it. I also end up throwing most purchases back to the debit cards during that time and missing rewards because I'm manging the util so closely. The payoff is worth it, the score is well managed, but boy is it a pain!

[uncredited]

For those that noted my mention of Amex's rewards, especially @K-in-Boston:.  Everyone else doesn't have to bother to read through this one!

A few of you noted I mentioned it wasn't the best fit reward currently. I'll explain that and how it ties into both Amex and FNBO. While a large chunk of spend is indeed on grocery, the majority of it wouldn't be keyed as grocery for Amex. I buy the majority from a wholesaler, a decent chunk from an area butcher/meat store, and the rest is traditional grocery. The wholesaler is just misc goods, so a 1.5x or 2x card works better for the bulk spend. BofA CC would work very well with 3% for online (store keys probably 2/3 of sales online, 1/3 as manual). The butcher/meat shop would be a good savings, but for Amex particularly they exclude butcher/meat/specialty, while BofA, Chase, Disco, and Cap1 all include it in their grocery categoreies. So that would leave about $2-2.5k or so a year keyed as grocery for Amex, basically produce and random misc purchases. So, minus the AF, a whopping $17.50 over a 1.5x card, but then misses the other .5% on all other non-grocery purchases that go on that card, so probably a loss, or break-even overall (assuming also gaining a 1.5 or 2% card to go with it though still viable.). However, I still would not rule it out, as the sub/intro covers 4 years, and over 4 years, I believe it's very possible my spend shift to grocery/transpo will increase significantly enough to close that gap and make the BCP a big winner. So I'm not against a card that isn't very rewarding now but probably will be in future, on a card I would intend to keep, where the sub/intro covers 4 years of the fee gap. Despite the fee, it still has a lot more potential than BCE, which is little more than a 1% card with 3% on grocery and not much else going on. Though BCE could pay ok if I shift somewhat but not a lot more toward grocery. That's partly why I don't want to get hung up so much on category rewards and focus on credit itself. Rewards that sound great today might be great tomorrow or terrible tomorrow other than flat rewards. I know travel/entertainment isn't my winning combo, but everything else has varying shades of fitting and in the end all probably breaks even (by careful design of the card companies.) 5 years ago when I started reasearching getting into credit, most of my debit spend was Amazon and I thought the Chase prime card was my goal card. Today, I still buy a lot there, but wouldn't call it the majority of spend...it's not so much one I'm even looking at, but could always change later.

The mentioned FNBO cobrand is actually for that wholesaler. Big savings there, easily the top earner from rewards of all cards by a landslide. I really would like that card, it would save a nice amount of money. BUT, I'm also concious that relationships between the companies can break down and leave me with a pretty bottom of the line card. And that my relationship with the store could change (selection, prices, min quantities changing, etc) could change, and I could end up moving most of my spend back to traditional grocery at any time. If I had an established file that card would be the top of the pack. But while in a building phase, I'm not certain it's the best long-term card even if it puts $700+ in my wallet every year (for now.) But if I went for an FNBO that would be the obvious winner until/unless the rewards don't make sense anymore some years later. I suppose that card + FNBO Evergreen could work, but then I'm sacrificing lender diversity (And from all I've read, which isn't all that much out there as a smaller lender, FNBO still makes me a little hesitant for how tricky they seem to be with without a long history/thick file and their paperwork/red tape (FAXES?! Is this 1990??).  But a few of you recommended them, so maybe my knowledge of them is outdated or incomplete.)

Also, the current Disco (Chrome) just does the 2% on restaurant/gas which becomes useless with other cards. I could PC that either into the Cash (rotating quarterly cat) or the Miles which Disco lets you cash out for cash, meaning it could become a 1.5x or a rotating quarterly which is a nice chamelion card to later convert into what fills the gap best. Keeping that ace in the pocket helps be flexible.  I didn't actually realize they do that until yesterday, so the existing Disco could doppleganger either as a catch-all 1.5x or as a rotating category depending on what other cards I end up going with. 

[Anonymous]

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@AnonymousHmm, interesting about the 6-mo to a year. So do you think the 1 card every 6 months is too aggressive and recommend spacing them out over 2 more years instead of 1? Though that will hurt AAoA for much longer.

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Not necessarily. I would say you need to be more careful than someone who has a long credit history. Your plan seems pretty good. I would just say that if they start to reduce SL and increase APR based on other approvals in similar situations, then you might need to slow it down more. 

I would also like to mention since you are considering FNBO and specified their 2% card as a possibility. I would go on their site and check for preapproval. They do a SP and give you a possible approval, which is considered fairly certain. They will show you your likely SL and APR. Then you can decide if you want to take it. I don't think they do that for the cobranded card though.

In regards to Chase. There is one good reason why I mention them as a possibility. In part for the 5/24 rule, but also due to the HP CLIs. You are correct on them doing HPs for any CLI request. They will however do auto CLIs if their cards are used a decent amount. For this reason it might be a good idea to try them next, if you want their cards. Force yourself to use the card a lot for at least the first six months, when you only have two credit cards to choose from.

[EAJuggalo]

@uncredited Is the 18th date the date it's being reported to the CRAs or is that the date that Disco updates your report?  This is actually one of the places that Credit Karma is useful.  You can look at your report there and it will show you what date it's being reported.  Does the number on your report match the previous months statement?

[KLEXH25]

I think if you applied for Chase now or soon, you'd probably get a card with them, but it would be a lower approval. And since their CLI are either a HP or automatic (less likely), it may be a long road until you have a higher limit. My approach was to go for the sure thing with SP CLI, get my existing limits higher, and then go for the harder cards and get approved with a (hopefully) higher limit. Of course there are no guarantees, but it paid off for me in my case. 

And the reason I suggest two at once and then garden for a year is because you'll recover those points lost, and then some, once your account hits the year mark. Applying every 6 months isn't necessarily safer or less risky. Plenty of people here apply for more than one card at a time, and while I don't necessarily condone a "spree" this early in the game, 2 cards hardly count as one. 

As for a credit union, you can just open a savings account with a decent rate and park some money in it. You don't have to change over your entire banking to it, and if you apply for a card, you're going to be creating an account with that bank anyway (same log-in) so something to consider. They also come in handy for any future loans you may need, such as an auto loan or a mortgage, since many have fantastic rates. 

[uncredited]

Great additional info. I think I have 3 major touch-stone questions now.

1) Is @KLEXH25 on the right track with the idea of getting 2 cards now and waiting 1 year, or is the 1 every 6 months the better idea? That's a good point on having the older AAoA by doing 2 at once and launching into the 4th with the older AAoA + no recents. OTOH, I would think that would limit CLI potential by splitting new spend on 2 cards those 6 months rather than giving each pretty much all spend at first, and I'd think the recent could look like seeking, and/or lower SL/APR with the second? That's an interesting conundrum and I'd appreciate additional opinions on that.

2) The other is, how important or unimportant is lender diversity? I.E. If I got one Amex, one FNBO cobrand, one 2% card, and one other card (or 2), would it be hurtful, beneficial, or neutral if 2 of those cards are both FNBO (evergreen and cobrand) vs getting the 2% from a different lender (since they're so abundant?)

3) If an app is rejected due to being less of a sure bet? How far back does that reset the wait to do a different app?

@AnonymousI'm definitely a fan of auto-CLI, so them doing auto is definitely a plus. OTOH, as @KLEXH25 mentioned, they could be slow-going, starting low, and inching up, too. I re-evaluated their benefits, and in the end I'm not too enthused about their core cards any more than Amex, really. It's kind of a choice between 1.5x (but offers more than Amex CM w/ 3% dining added) or rotating categories and I re-evaluated their history going back farther on the categories, and I'm not sure it compliments disco as much as I thought at first. I think I'd end up under-using at least half the months. So from Chase, the Amazon Prime card remains maybe more viable (but could overlap with BCP on the grocery thing somewhat with the whole foods perk.) FU/FF are definitely decent, but I think a lot is lost if you're not using much of the 5% travel perks. Still, if they are cards that auto-grow, they could be viable. I checked "amazon reviews" of the Prime signature card, and reports are all over the place between people getting clis and people seeing terrible growth.

@EAJuggaloBTW, thanks for the mention that CM doesn't PC to anything, that's definitely helpful and has me swaying toward BCP if I go Amex. The 18th date is the date that Disco lists, you're right, I' haven'tt seen the full report yet. The report date doesn't match the statement dates, though. Statement is 24th. Pay-by is 19th. Report (in disco) is always 18th. But balance doesn't match balance on the 18th, so it's presumably not when the report is really reported/generated.

@KLEXH25Definitely a lot of food for thought as listed above, thanks for that! I like your plan, but I have some uncertainty about it. To me, it doesn't matter much if it's 2 now, or 6 months, so I'd definitely like to see what others have to say about which idea sounds best. I'm definitely in the exact same minset about sure thing, SP CLI, get limits up,

Also, one card I didn't mention that looks decent, maybe not the first card, but in some ways a BCP alternative is Savor One.  3% dining, 3% grocery (uncapped, and more generous definition of grocery) (but no gas/transit),  no AF and some good Cap1 features is appealing.  But I've heard so much about Cap1 bucketing, and ultra stingy SLI, it sounds like the wrong choice at the time.

Among the 2% cards, sounds like Citi DC is good but maybe not the best for SL/CLI, but is SP, WF is adjunct and low SLI, CUs are ok (but I'm not sold on adding more accounts to manage, not ruling it out though), FNBO is ok but not sure if it's best if I'm doing cobrand with them, and PP Syncb may or may not be ok, though I worry a little about Syncb being Syncb, and the card being cobrand.

[uncredited]

I had a few other thoughts/questions/adjustments as I think about all this as I think of my spreadsheets (so much information to crunch!):

I realized that, though the 1 year anniversary of the 1 disco card has now passed, the 6 month anniversary of the CLI is at the end of this month, meaning, in theory, I should be able to hit the luv botton (or will be given an auto?)  Should I hold off for any apps until next month and wait for the CLI chance? (Or try to get an app in before the CLI to give them a competitor?)

Also, the more I run the calculations against a variety of cards, the less more of them tend to look really meaningful.  Most of them end up being close to a wash within $100/yr or so so there's not a tremendous advantage to most of them.  They're not amatuers, they've designed them to be mostly equivalent on average.

So I think my "4-5 card mix" would end up looking like:

A setup for max basic rewards

Disco (PC'd to rotating qtrly) + Some 2% card + FNBO cobrand store-reward + either BofA/Chase Amazon Prime/Amex BCP/Citi CC

or

A setup for max high rewards

Disco (PC'd to 1.5x [no 2% card]) + FNBO cobrand + Chase Flex + either BofA/BCP/Savor/Chase Amazon Prime/Citi CC

Still don't know what order that should all work in. Building the best CREDIT is still the more important component than the rewards. I want to line up the rewards smartly, of course, but not at the cost of the main goal, the solid credit.  The question about 2 at once or 1 every 6mo, and the question about lender diversity above are still important.

More specifically, I'm wondering if it would be better to do the FNBO cobrand AND the Evergreen, or if it would be better to do any other 2% card (Citi DC, WF AC, PPMC), and make sure not to have 2 FNBO cards at this point.

[Anonymalous]

I'm similarly late to credit, though a few months behind you (I'm at 10 months). I'm going to pass on some advice someone gave me last year: You're probably overthinking things. I can sympathize with the urge to optimize everything (I have a bunch of spreadsheets, too), but there are too many unknown variables, and you don't have to be perfect. Develop good habits, and your credit will improve. One year is a great time get a second card, so pick a card you like, and apply. If you're rejected, have a backup. Every 6 months thereafter is probably fine.

I applied to Chase when I had 6 months of credit history. They shot me down, and the consensus was Chase wants to see at least a year of history. With a full year, you could probably get a card from them or Citi. Your SL might not be the greatest, but I don't know much about that.

You briefly mentioned Capital One. They're also friendly to thin files, and their prequal seems fairly reliable. You're probably a shoe-in for the Savor One. Their bucketed cards tend to be those given to people who were unscorable with no credit history (like I was), or who had bad credit, at the time they applied. You're not in either category, so I doubt you'd have that problem. Though I can't say whether they'd be better for you than other major lenders in terms of SLs or CLIs.

I don't think anybody's specifically addressed it, but yes FBNO is friendly to thin files, and they're also known for high starting limits. There are multiple reports of people with less than a year of credit history getting $10K+ SLs on the Evergreen. Try their online prequal if you're interested, the SLs offered have been fairly accurate. With the possible exception of PenFed and maybe Synchrony (?), of all the 2% cards out there, you'd probably get the highest SL from the Evergreen. Don't know about co-brands.

[Kforce]

I don't think FNBO is any harder to get than any of the other cards you have been pondering.

Why not try the pre-qualify page and see if the evergreen is a go?

If it is, then go for the co-branded FNBO.

[Anonymalous]

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@uncredited wrote:

@EAJuggaloIt's weird with the dating. The scorecard always says it's from the 18th of every month, but the util never matches the balance on the 18th of the month. Originally I assumed it would be near the closing date, but it's not, at least as dated. I've been pretty much doing a payment to cover most but not all of the current balance (so it's never 0% util), and then avoiding adding charges through the 26th (to clear the statement date) out of not knowing where the balance is reported. It's been working fine that way, but it's a hassle. Also a pain because a lot of transactions tend to not post for days. That's one reason I want to work on a much bigger CLI, simply so I don't have to micromanage util all the time and can actually use auto-pay. I have a 2 week period now I micromanage and pay it 2x a week if I use it. I also end up throwing most purchases back to the debit cards during that time and missing rewards because I'm manging the util so closely. The payoff is worth it, the score is well managed, but boy is it a pain!

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Have you considered spending $1/day on the card between the 18th and the 27th, waiting to see what balance is reported, and then comparing the reported balance with the daily totals to see which day matches? That's what I did.