Am I getting scammed by a fake debt collector?

[Anonymous]

To start the story, we go back to March, 2010. My (now) ex wife opened a Wells Fargo bank account under my name and it defaulted to the tune of $566 and was first reported by collection company TK Financial in July 2013. I found out about this years later, in 2015, when I ran my full credit report to buy a new car. Whatever, I left it be since to pay it would make it current and hurt me more than letting it fall off in the next couple years..

Today, I got a strange call. Some lady saying call this number or we call your payroll and human resources dept at your work. So I called the number, and this guy tells me because of the Wells Fargo collection:

I owe either $966 straight up or $1900 paid over $150/mo installments.

That I had 2 weeks before litigation would begin the process of suing me

In which case I would lose and have to pay $4000 in fees on top of it.

But wait, he could put a 48 hour hold on my account while I arranged payment through their website, and if I did that, he would take $800.

Seems straight enough, right? They're moving forward.

Except...

He refused to tell me anything about the collection account except the date the account was opened and the account #. That's "all the information I have".

Said it sits in a bank-run Checks system, not a regular credit report with the agencies so trying to find information on the debt would be useless, especially with Wells Fargo (conveniently enough)

It's like he wanted money but didn't want me to find out any real info about the debt.

I asked for a letter proving he owned the debt that I owe, which he said I could only receive taking my chances in court at a "discovery filing".

When pressed about a letter of notice, he changed the story and said one had been sent to my parents house (my mom opens all of my mail so I don't ever miss anything that gets sent there by mistake), but since I personally didn't live there, there was nobody to sign for the "signature delivery that only I can sign for" that he said it had been sent by.

Said he wasn't a debt collector, but a mediator that tries to settle before they sue people.

Threatened me with civil judgements that would wreck my credit.

Very, very smooth talker. I tried to get under his skin, rattle him a little and see if he made a mistake, and he didn't. He had an answer for everything EXCEPT the questions I directly asked.

So my questions:

What do I do? I was thinking I would call him and say "this call is being recorded, can you please state your name, company with street address and phone number" and see what his reaction is.

The way it appears to me is that I cannot get proof I owe anything to this particular man/company before paying, which sounds illegal to me.

I ran my credit tonight and now the debt is completely gone. Experian, TransUnion, Equifax all have no record of it. Which means it had to have fallen off between this past July and now, is that correct?

Also, while researching later after I talked to him, I found out that the statute of limitations for suing over debt in CA is 4 years, since I'd never touched the account the clock on that could not have started any later than July 2013 when it was first reported by TK Financial, which puts us over 4 years now. So he is actually breaking the law by threatening to sue me, correct?

I need some real help here. I will literally send cash tips to anybody who has real answers for me here. No joke. Thank you all so much in advance!!

[RobertEG]

Nothwithstanding his assertions, he is likely considered a debt collector under the FDCPA, as he is attempting to collect on a debt incurred with another.

FDCPA 809(a) imposes an automatic requirment for a debt collector to send a consumer a formal collection ("dunning") notice within 5 days after initiating a communication with a consumer.  That notice is required to, at the least, provide the name of the current owner of the debt, the amount of the asserted debt, and most importantly, advise the consumer of their right to request validation of the debt within 30 days of the dunning notice.  If you have not received dunning notice within approx. 10'ish days, then they are in violation of FDCPA 809(a).

You can then file a formal complaint with the CFPB and/or file a civil action seeking statutory damages for their violation.

FDCPA 809(b) provides for your filing of a request for debt validation.  A timely request for debt validation imposes an automatic cease collection bar on the debt collector, which prevents any continued collection activities, including any calls, until they have first sent you validation of the asserted debt.  A DV request is timely if sent either prior to any dunning notice (which is apparently your situation), or if sent within 30 days of receipt of a dunning notice.  

I would immediately send them a DV.

Still sticking to requirments of the federal FDCPA, section 807 lists numerous practices that are defined as false or misleading debt collection practices.  FDCPA 807(5) lists as a false statement the threat to take any action that cannot legally be taken.  Expiration of the state SOL makes a threat to bring civil action a false and misleading statement.

In addition to federal debt collection practices law, as set forth in the FDCPA, California enacted their own state debt collection statute, titled the California Fair Debt Buying Practices Act, that became effective on Jan. 1, 2014.  It provides additional requirments not explicitly set forth under the federal FDCPA, and applies to any party who has purchased a delinquent debt.  Notable is the provision that debt collectors can be held liable for damages if they sue on a debt that is outside the statute of limitations.

Additionally, the California act debt buyers must possess some of the following information in order to make a written statement to collect:

• An accurate account of the balance of a debt at charge-off, and the nature and reason for any post-charge-off interest and fees. While this part of the Act does not “require a specific itemization” it does require those items be broken out separately. I expect this will curb the questionable practice of inflating balances in collection.
• The date the account went into default, or the date of last payment. Knowing this date will help consumers understand how much risk remains that they can still be sued for a debt, and should also assist in helping to better understand any valid post charge-off interest and fees.
• The name and address of the charge-off creditor (the original lender), and of any previous purchasers of the account. This will help people to clearly identify whether the debt is their own, which has not always been easy to determine when debt buyers resell debts to other companies.
• The debt buyer must have access to a copy of the agreement evidencing a debt. This can include “the most recent monthly statement showing a record of a purchase transaction, last payment, or balance transfer…” Providing consumers this type of documentation is typically something debt collectors and debt buyers are already accustomed to in order to meet their obligations when responding to debt validation requests under existing federal laws (the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act). But there is more.

Do you have any showing that the party who called you has acquired the asserted debt?

[Anonymous]

I still get random calls from random junk debt buyers over debts from over 10 years ago.  I usually string them along because I am a pro at saying nothing over the phone.  

If they aren't going to send you a Dunning notice or some kind of collection notice by mail, they're just predatory collectors.  Tell him "At this point I am telling you to cease and desist contacting me or anyone else by telephone at any number and submit your request and demands by writing."

I've caught CAs in lies in the past and had to actually threaten to sue them (by mail) to collect settlements.  Some of these vultures are horrid but their tactics work so well that they don't mind paying 1% of their victims out to settle a lawsuit.  

Never negotiate debts over the phone -- you absolutely need it in writing, by postal mail, so you can catch them in mail fraud if necessary.

[Anonymous]

Thank you, thank you all so much for your input! If there is anything I can do to repay you, please let me know.

The update is I tried calling today to demand a dunning notice, or debt validation, and once they realized it was me calling they said my case manager (the guy I spoke to initially) was gone for the day. I tried calling back 10 times trying to get the name of the company or an address, and finally someone told me the company name- PS Group, and said they couldn't give out the address due "to the thing in Vegas recently". They also said that they could not send any validation notice because that only comes in the "discovery findings" phase of court litigation. Which sounds like lies to me.

On the 10th call they transferred me to the "boss", who immediately transferred me to the voicemail of the case manager. After repeated attempts to call him back at the number he called from, he started sending my calls directly to this case manager voicemail.

So it looks like they know I caught them and are now blocking me at every turn from finding anything out about where they are located. I'll be calling again on monday to speak to this case manager and tell him only that I require dunning / validation notice on the debt and will only contact him by mail, and if he does not comply, I will be sending a cease and desist notice.

I guess my only last question is do I give him my new address to send a validation notice if for some reason he complies? My only worry is they will sue me anyways, and hope I don't notice or go to court, so they can win in a default judgement when all I would have had to do to prevent it in my defense was to send a handwritten notice to the court stating that the statue of limitations has expired. I've read about companies doing this, suing on expired debt and occasionally winning a default judgement when the other party doesn't put up any defense because they weren't aware. Of course, if they did this I could countersue, but I'd rather it just go away like it's been. There is some method the court would require to make absolute sure that I am aware anything is filed against me, like getting served? I just want to cover all my bases.

Thanks again for everything thus far! Much appreciated

ps- No, I have received nothing here or at my parents house saying they even own the debt. The only information on the debt the "case manager" even had was the account # and date opened. He had no info on what agencies had it before him, nothing. I've received no notices of any kind

[RobertEG]

The FDCPA requirment to send a formal collection ("dunning") notice is based upon any initial communication with the consumer, and is definately not restricted only to filing of civil actions:

"§ 809.  Validation of debts

(a) Notice of debt; contents
Within five days after the initial communication with a consumer in connection with the collection of any debt, a debt collector shall, unless the following information is contained in the initial communication or the consumer has paid the debt, send the consumer a written notice containing --

(1) the amount of the debt;

(2) the name of the creditor to whom the debt is owed;

(3) a statement that unless the consumer, within thirty days after receipt of the notice, disputes the validity of the debt, or any portion thereof, the debt will be assumed to be valid by the debt collector;

(4) a statement that if the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the thirty-day period that the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, the debt collector will obtain verification of the debt or a copy of a judgment against the consumer and a copy of such verification or judgment will be mailed to the consumer by the debt collector; and

(5) a statement that, upon the consumer's written request within the thirty-day period, the debt collector will provide the consumer with the name and address of the original creditor, if different from the current creditor."

Of particular importance in your situation is the requirment to name the current owner of the debt.

If they have purchased the debt, that subjects them as a debt buyer to the California Debt Buyers Practices Act, which does include specific limitations and requirements regarding debts that are outside of SOL and documentation requirements not required under the FDCPA.

I would send a formal complaint to the CFPB  for their lack of dunning notice, and let them make their absurd assertions to the CFPB.

[Miner]

"guess my only last question is do I give him my new address to send a validation notice if for some reason he complies?"

When I've delt with debt collectors in the past, unless the statue of limitations has passed in my state for being sued, I only give them a PO Box. Renting a private mailbox from a shipping place like UPS Store or Mailboxes etc would also work.  Some places you can just rent one for a few months if you don't want to pay for a year.

[Anonymous]

This is a straight scam. See how many debt collection violations   you can find.  Hint, calling payroll, not mailing notice, not telling who owns debt each count.  Make sure you document/ record all these events. Most fold up.  DW has pursued these types  who were looking for the person with similar name, birth date , and lives not that far away.  Some simply the consumer attorney could not find/not worth it..  Others were very unhappy to pay DW and consumer attorney several thousand dollars but they did/     I would not worry about it. 

[Anonymous]

Hi,
So I spoke with him one more time today. He said that since I refused to settle out of court, that is be getting served with a court date to argue this within the next month.

He said he is a litigator who is subcontracted by whoever owns this debt, but he was bound by confidentiality agreements so he could not tell me who that is, and that the only proof I will get the debt exists is if I don't settle and go to court.

He said when I lose the court case, it will get reported to chex systems who banks use for new accounts, but not my normal credit report.

He refused to allow me consent to record the conversation, refused to give me his company name or address, he said he was exempt from that fair debt reporting law because its an "isolated instance of debt collection that is not contained within the law and is on the very first page" .

And if I didn't mention it, I checked my credit report top to bottom. This debt doesn't exist anywhere in any of the 3 agencies.

So I guess now we see if I actually get served something or not. I'm very VERY curious about him not disclosing who he is supposedly subcontracted by and hiding behind disclosure agreements. Anybody who offers a settlement on a debt must identify the debt owner, is that not true?

[Anonymous]

He's lying.  All over the place.

I personally love these vultures because I can and do call them all sorts of hilarious terms that unfortunately the MyFico forums would censor (you'd laugh, too).

Stop calling him.  If he calls you, tell him YOU are recording the call and if he says to stop say "I am recording this statement: cease and desist calling me and send me the required Dunning notice by mail to the address on my credit reports that you have access to."

This is a JDB vulture and they lie all the time via the phone.

[RobertEG]

If it is a scam, which is likely, the CFPB has likely received prior complaints.

The CFPB maintains a database of prior complaints, and number/severity of such complaints can trigger an investigation and potential action on their part.  I would definately send a summary of all of their violations to the CFPB.

You apparently have enough info to permit the CFPB to identify them, and communicate with them.

Contrary to their assertions, they are acting as a debt collector, and are subject to all of the provisions and requirments of the FDCPA.

They are thus subject to civil action on your part for any violations of the FDCPA, and also subject to administrative oversight by the CFPB for any violations of that statute.

I would strongly recommend filing a formal complaint with the CFPB.