Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

[JVille]

Ahhh no, they have a car (Lemon or not) that has not been paid for. Please seek legal advise! The car dealership may be liars and thieves but I am assuming the OP is an honest and honorable person.

[trusty]

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@JVille wrote:
Ahhh no, they have a car (Lemon or not) that has not been paid for. Please seek legal advise! The car dealership may be liars and thieves but I am assuming the OP is an honest and honorable person.

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Being an, "honest and honorable person," in spite of a wholly fraudulent transaction being heaped upon the consumer... does not mean the consumer has to then just declare no harm no foul. 

In fact, this is very often where people miscalculate their legal position. By, thinking common sense and good intentions mean anything, legally. I would agree - to seek legal advice.

But, the situation is clear. The OP has had the dispute resolved in the OP's favor. The fraudulent dealer's recourse is now the courts.

If we're just talking about determining right from wrong... than, the dealer committed fraud when they tampered with the odometer, and they absolutely deserve to lose out, subsequently.

If the OP decides to do anything, one may consider a word with the State Attorney, in lieu of reporting the dealer for fraud... with the documented evidence obtained from the DMV.

Converselly, if the OP just takes the car back... then the OP can be sued, end up with no car, and no further standing to report the fraud.

The fact that the consumer has to suffer and endure with a lemon, fraudulently heaped upon them... creates more legal standing for the consumer, than pretending nothing bad happened to them, in some misguided attempt to be above it all.

That kind of mindless earnestness, to a fault, just doesn't work anymore - in the modern world. It doesn't help situations, at all. Come to think of it, I don't know if it ever really did.

Perhaps that's a cynical way to look at things. - Or, just realistic. But, it's not for lack of trying. It has real precedent. This is why we post our experiences with others. So that they don't think that just trying to be the good guy is going to work. Let's face facts, it doesn't.

When someone is a victim of deliberate corporate fraud, there is no further purpose to automatically try to freely give out the benefit of doubt. At this point, the only fair and just thing to do becomes taking whatever is coming to them.

[JVille]

The car regardless of intent on either parties side has now not been paid for. Some legal communities may call this theft. These folks may be crooks but the OP must seek legal advice. He is going to be screwed by these people. At the very least he Can/WILL be turned over to collection, he has broken a legal contract and at this point it’s on him to prove to the courts (not the bank) that the Contract was illegal.
The OP may also want to contact the Attorney Generals Office in his state. And seek legal advice ASAP.

[trusty]

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@JVille wrote:
The car regardless of intent on either parties side has now not been paid for. Some legal communities may call this theft. These folks may be crooks but the OP must seek legal advice. He is going to be screwed by these people. At the very least he Can/WILL be turned over to collection, he has broken a legal contract and at this point it’s on him to prove to the courts (not the bank) that the Contract was illegal.
The OP may also want to contact the Attorney Generals Office in his state. And seek legal advice ASAP.

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That would probably be the case if everything was black and white.

The OP didn't steal anything. The dealer tried to steal his money through a wilfully fraudulent transaction... and foolishly ended up forfeiting the car in the process.

We live in the grey... where very often one side wins, and the other side loses, in spite of all the minutiae.

They can re-litigate in court. But, then the OP can bring out the DMV and the State Attorney. This is an unwinnable situation for a fraudulent dealer. 

Again, they probably forfeit cars on occasion, perpetrating fraud on consumers. They'll probably just stop accepting credit cards, like other bad actors have done. Otherwise... it's just a cost of doing that kind of illegitimate business. 

[Kree]

When I had a store I did not accept Amex for 2 reasons.

1.  the price was too high, they charged double what Visa and MC did.

2. Amex merchant agreements are the pits. If a customer successfully proves merchandise is defective, I lose my money, and the customer gets to keep the item.  There is no "refund at return" type of options.

Now I dealt with 15 dollar dvds, instead of 5000 dollar cars, but the agreement didn't specify price. Call up AMEX and ask if you get to keep the car, chances are they will say yes.

EDIT:

3. Amex chargebacks are binding, merchants agree not to arbitrate outside of AMEX system.

As a note, this is a decade ago, so things might have changed, but there is a good chance the car is yours.

[JVille]

Better get Am Ex to put that in writing and provide written documentation. 😳

[arkane]

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@Kree wrote:

When I had a store I did not accept Amex for 2 reasons.

1.  the price was too high, they charged double what Visa and MC did.

2. Amex merchant agreements are the pits. If a customer successfully proves merchandise is defective, I lose my money, and the customer gets to keep the item.  There is no "refund at return" type of options.

Now I dealt with 15 dollar dvds, instead of 5000 dollar cars, but the agreement didn't specify price. Call up AMEX and ask if you get to keep the car, chances are they will say yes.

EDIT:

3. Amex chargebacks are binding, merchants agree not to arbitrate outside of AMEX system.

As a note, this is a decade ago, so things might have changed, but there is a good chance the car is yours.

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Well hot dang now I want an Amex card  

[Anonymous]

I would still double check with Amex and the merchant. Most credit card agreements have clauses that excludes motor vehicles, aircrafts, etc from certain benefits.

Auto Nation is a large company so it may take time for them to notice or take any kind of action.

[trusty]

One thing the OP can probably expect from a 5k charge-back however, is to be called up for financial review with Amex.

If the used dealer is a large corporation, they will likely want to have an internal investigation as to why they are committing fraud on customers... unless of course, the whole corporation is complicit, like with the repeated Wells Fargo fraud scandal. If however, the OP does decide to report this... do not expect anyone at that dealership to do anything, as they are all in cover-their-assets mode. Make sure to report it all the way up the chain, directly to corporate.

Other than that, might as well let sleeping dogs lie, until the next battle ensues. For there will always be another battle to be had. No need to rush it. Meantime, ride that lemon 'till the wheels fall off.

[Anonymous]

Possession is 9/10's of the law, at least according to lore.  You have the title.  You own the car.  You have no criminal backlash to fear, only civil...and I'm guessing that dealer does NOT want to go there.  Have all of the things fixed (it sounds as if you have done that), keep all receipts for repairs and the mechanic's name and contact info if possible - the one who pointed out all of the problems the car had that were disclosed by the dealer to be sound.  I don't know your state's particular laws (some can be pretty weired as we all know) but I do know you should just fix up your car and enjoy it.  The worst that can happen is you get notification from the dealer that you owe them money for the car... and THEN is the time to contact your state's Attorney General, the BBB and any other TLA ("three letter agency") to get them off your tail, and/or get an attorney to sue/countersue on your behalf for the grief, the time you spent with AmEx and the dealer, the money you spent just to have that dependable ride the dealer PROMISED you, etc., etc.  It seems to me as if you've already spent enough of your valuable time (we're all born "terminal" with a FINITE number of hours on this Earth).  Someone smarter than I might disagree and point out where I'm wrong (I frequently AM) but again, I say just enjoy your ride and thank you for pointing out the great benefit of using AmEx for these types of transactions...it's better than doubling one's manufacturer's warranty, IMHO.

EDITED TO ADD: AutoNation is a generally reputable corporation and I'm guessing this isn't the first time this shady dealer operating under their good network's decent reputation and the shady dealer in question won't be pursuing this matter with you because I'd be surprised if they're not already operating their franchise under a few red and/or yellow flags and don't need another one on their radar...just a guess though :-)