INSANE PROCESS OF APPLYING THE FICO MODEL TO EXP

[Anonymous]

I hear what you are saying.  Do you think I should in the mean time get TU up to date with regard to the "revolving" account that was just corrected at EXP?

I don't get how your scores are where they are.  Kudo's to you but man that's killing me. I've never had a foreclosure, repo, bankruptcy.  Nothing.  I have one account that has been paid since 06 that was 30 days late at last reporting in 06 and other than that you already know the rest. 

According the "reports" I have 9 accounts in "good standing".  Apparently not good enough.

[haulingthescoreup]

EXP  588

Number of inquiries impacted score.
Length of time since legal item filed or collection item reported (Code:20)
Derogatory public record or collection filed (Code:40)
Insufficient or lack of revolving account information (Code:16)
Length of time accounts have been established

TU  617

Derogatory public record or collection filed (Code:040)

Lack of recent revolving account information (Code:016)
Lack of recent bank revolving information (Code:015)

Length of time since derogatory public record or collection is too short (Code:020)

EQ  622

Too many inquiries within the last 12 months (Code:8)
Derogatory public record or collection filed (Code:40)

Length of time since derogatory public record or collection is too short (Code:20)
Length of time accounts have been established (Code:14)

(reposted to refresh my aging memory)

It sounds like you're going for a mortgage, and of course, that adds time pressure, but looking at these, here's what I see:

1 - You seem to have done a lot of apping on EQ and EX. How long before you only have one or two that are less than a year old? The fact that this is listed first on those two reports means that it's hurting your scores the most.

2 - You seem to have little or no active revolving accounts, as mentioned on EX and TU. Revolving credit is riskier than installment, in that you can get into a whole lot more trouble with CC's than loans, so if you have it and you have a track record of handling it well, you can get lots of points for it. Two, preferably three open revolving accounts that are being used, occasionally posting very low balances that are promptly paid off, with only one at a time reporting a balance, and open for several months at least (probably six is my guess) should help. If you pull a myFICO score report here on EQ or TU and play with the simulator at the end, what does it tell you might happen if you open a new CC? The sim isn't a Voice from Mount Sinai, but it can be an indicator. Note, however, that EX lists this after the collections, so I don't know how much it will help. But for a mortgage, the name of the game is getting the middle score as high as possible, so improving TU and EQ might be your goal.

3 - How long ago is the date on the most recent collection? The older, the better. Paid collections don't help scores, alas, although they do make loan officers a lot happier. How old is the one that will soon be removed? Unless it's your newest, you might not see much change if you still have other collections, and newer ones, but everything helps in the long run.

4 - EX and EQ are saying that you have short history, although it's listed as the last displayed factor on both, so it's not huge. Nevertheless, just letting things cook for a while will help that AND the "length of time since derog collection or PR" dings. And if you do get more revolving accounts reporting, having six months or more of responsible handling of CC's will help.

I don't know if you can let go of the mortgage process for now, but you're going to wind up with a better rate if you can back away for now and (I think) add some open revolving history. Let most of the inqs go over a year (although you'll get more if you get more revolving, unfortunately), and let those collections get more age on them and maybe pry a few more off via GW letters. Calculate your average age of accounts (AAoA), using both open and closed accounts of all types, for each report. If you're several months away from going up a year, that would help. 2y 10 months is counted as 2 years, while 3y 1m is 3 years, and that can make a bit difference.

I would strongly advise joining a credit union. Take your reports with you. Tell them that you don't want them to pull another report now, but would they give you an educated guess as to whether they could work with you with a secured credit card, where you give them a deposit and they issue a card with the CL of that amount. And it's probably worth investigating getting that one existing account to report as revolving instead of installment, unless you have a high balance on it. (High revolving util is NOT good for FICO scores.)

I hope that gives you some ideas, and I'm sure that you'll get more input from others. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Ok hauling that's a lot of great info so I'm going to likewise copy and paste with my answers to them in between.  Youi're going to LOVE this:

It sounds like you're going for a mortgage, and of course, that adds time pressure, but looking at these, here's what I see:

1 - You seem to have done a lot of apping on EQ and EX. How long before you only have one or two that are less than a year old? The fact that this is listed first on those two reports means that it's hurting your scores the most.

ACCORIDING TO EQ, THE ONES HURTING MY SCORE ARE FROM: 11/16/08  (TIME WARNER CABLE)  12/04/09  (RETAILIERS NATIONAL BANK.  I HAVE NO CLUE WHO THAT IS AND THE DISPUTE DIDN'T HELP)  9/17/09  AND 12/16/08 (ORCS WHICH IS MY MORTGAGE GUY I'M WORKING WITH NOW)

AS FOR THOSE "NOT AFFECTING" ACCORDING TO EQ  I HAVE 7 THAT RANGE FROM 5/09- 12/09. 

2 - You seem to have little or no active revolving accounts, as mentioned on EX and TU. Revolving credit is riskier than installment, in that you can get into a whole lot more trouble with CC's than loans, so if you have it and you have a track record of handling it well, you can get lots of points for it. Two, preferably three open revolving accounts that are being used, occasionally posting very low balances that are promptly paid off, with only one at a time reporting a balance, and open for several months at least (probably six is my guess) should help. If you pull a myFICO score report here on EQ or TU and play with the simulator at the end, what does it tell you might happen if you open a new CC? The sim isn't a Voice from Mount Sinai, but it can be an indicator. Note, however, that EX lists this after the collections, so I don't know how much it will help. But for a mortgage, the name of the game is getting the middle score as high as possible, so improving TU and EQ might be your goal.

BUT I DO HAVE TWO REVOLVING ACCOUNTS.  ALTHOUGH THEY AREN'T LISTED UNDER THE REVOLVING HEADER IN EQ, THE BALANCES HAVE CEARLY AFFECTED THE SCORE.  THIS IS WHY MY LENDER HAD MY CU TO RIGHT A LETTER STATING THAT THEY WERE IN FACT REVOLVING TO SUBMIT TO EXPERIAN SINCE IT WAS MY LOWEST SCORE.  BALANCE OF ONLY $51 OUT OF $3000 AVAIL.  SCORE WENT DOWN, NOT UP.  THAT'S WHY I MENTIONED WHETHER OR NOT I SHOULD DO THIS WITH TU SINCE THEY DON'T LIST THE ACCOUNTS AS REVOLVING.  BUT AS YOU SEE, IT DIDN'T HELP AT EXP WITH REGARD TO FICO SCORE

THE SIMULATORS TELL ME TO PAY ON TIME FOR 24 MTHS.  IF I OPEN A CC IT IS ONLY MODEST.  AND SINCE THEY DON'T RECOGNIZE THE REVOLVING AS THEY SHOULD THEN I DON'T HAVE THE OPTION TO USE THAT ASPECT OF THE SIMULATOR.

YOU'RE RIGHT.  MIDDLE SCORE.  MY TU WAS AT 617 AND AS OF TODAY, PULLED HERE AT MYFICO, IT'S 607.  EQ IS 636.  AFRAID TO TOUCH ANYTHING.

3 - How long ago is the date on the most recent collection? The older, the better. Paid collections don't help scores, alas, although they do make loan officers a lot happier. How old is the one that will soon be removed? Unless it's your newest, you might not see much change if you still have other collections, and newer ones, but everything helps in the long run.

MAY UNFORTUNATELY.  DID A PFD AND THEY WOULDN'T ACCEPT.  PAID THE OC INSTEAD, NOW IT ONLY REPORTS AS PAID.  BIGGEST JERK I HAVE EVER DEALT WITH.  LODGED A COMPLAINT BECAUSE OF HOW RUDE AND INSENSITIVE HE WAS.  HAD THEY TAKEN ABOUT 5 MINUTES TO FIGURE OUT I HAD MOVED AND WAS STILL IN THE AREA IT COULD HAVE BEEN RESOLVED AND WE QUITE FRANKLY WOULDN'T BE HAVING SUCH AN IN DEPTH CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS.

ALSO DID A PFD WITH RJUM ACQUISITIONS AND THEY FOLLOWED THROUGH.  BUT DIDN'T AFFECT THE FICO VERSION OF THE SCORES AT TU AND EXP.  BUT THEIR OWN VERSION JUMPED CONSIDERABLY.  THE COLLECTION DIDN'T APPEAR ON EQ SO I GOT NOTHING FOR THE DELETION THERE.

THERE'S A PENDING DELETION COMING PER LETTER RECEIVED RECENTLY.  HOWEVER IT WILL ONLY AFFECT EQ AS THAT IS THE ONLY PLACE IT APPEARS.  THERE WAS A  DUPLICATE COLLECTION OF $28 WITH THE LOCAL HOSPITAL, THEY FOUND IT, SEND OUT THE REQ TO DELETE AND I PAID THE ORIGINAL ACTUAL BILL.  THE COLLECTION IS A COUPLE OF YEARS OLD SO I SUSPECT I'LL GET LITTLE OR NOTHING IN THE WAY OF POINTS.  BUT IT WILL BE GONE AND THAT LOOKS GOOD.

THERE'S BEEN NO HELP FROM A COUPLE OF THE CA'S ABOUT DELETING.  THEY ARE STEDFAST WITH THEIR "RIGHT TO LIST IT FOR 7 YEARS" AS THEIR REASON.

4 - EX and EQ are saying that you have short history, although it's listed as the last displayed factor on both, so it's not huge. Nevertheless, just letting things cook for a while will help that AND the "length of time since derog collection or PR" dings. And if you do get more revolving accounts reporting, having six months or more of responsible handling of CC's will help.

TU SAYS I HAVE BEEN ON FILE WITH THEM SINCE '89.  MY OLDEST ACCOUNT WITH EQ IS 10 YEARS.  THERE'S AN ACCOUNT WITH GREENTREE SERVICING THAT LISTS A LATE PAY AND THAT IS FALLING UNDER THE CATEGORY OF "NEGATIVE" INFORMATION.  I'VE SPOKEN WITH GREENTREE ABOUT THIS AND THEY WON'T BUDGE.   THEIR ACCOUNT IS LISTED AS "UNDER RE INVESTIGATION" AFTER I SPOKE WITH EQ AND TOLD THEM I DIDN'T DISPUTE.  THE VERY NEXT DAY AFTER THE DISPUTE STATUS WAS CHANGED, MY SCORE WENT UP 12 POINTS.

I don't know if you can let go of the mortgage process for now, but you're going to wind up with a better rate if you can back away for now and (I think) add some open revolving history. Let most of the inqs go over a year (although you'll get more if you get more revolving, unfortunately), and let those collections get more age on them and maybe pry a few more off via GW letters. Calculate your average age of accounts (AAoA), using both open and closed accounts of all types, for each report. If you're several months away from going up a year, that would help. 2y 10 months is counted as 2 years, while 3y 1m is 3 years, and that can make a bit difference.

I'VE TRIED GW LETTERS AND THEY FELL ON DEAF EARS.  I TRIED A GW CALL AND THAT WAS THE SAME.  LETTING THE MORTGAGE GO IS A SHAME.  ALL MY LENDER IS ASKING IS THAT I BE AT OR ABOVE 620 ON ONE AND ABOVE ON ANOTHER SO THAT MY MIDDLE SCORE IS 620.  THIS IS A HUGE DEAL IN MANY WAYS.  I'M LOOKING AT DROPPING MY INTEREST RATE FROM 5.5% TO AS LOW AS 3.75% IF I CAN GET THESE SCORES TO MOVE.  THAT'S ON A 15 YEAR LOAN.  THAT IS EQUAL TO A SAVINGS OF $50K IN INTEREST OVER THE LIFE OF THE LOAN.  I ALSO NEED ABOUT $6K TO PAY OFF SOME UNEXPECTED REPAIRS THAT SET OFF THIS WHOLE PROCESS.

I would strongly advise joining a credit union. Take your reports with you. Tell them that you don't want them to pull another report now, but would they give you an educated guess as to whether they could work with you with a secured credit card, where you give them a deposit and they issue a card with the CL of that amount. And it's probably worth investigating getting that one existing account to report as revolving instead of installment, unless you have a high balance on it. (High revolving util is NOT good for FICO scores.)

BEEN A MEMBER OF A CREDIT UNION FOR 13 YEARS.  THEY ALWAYS WORK WITH ME BUT THEY DON'T DO MORTGAGES ANYMORE.  THAT IS WHERE MY REVOLVING CC ACCOUNT IS.  IT IS A VISA WITH A $3000 LIMIT AND ONLY A $51 BALANCE.   I ALSO HAVE AN OD PROTECTION ACCOUNT THAT IS REVOLVING BUT IT'S NOT SHOWING TO BE REVOLVING ON EQ OR TU.  THAT BEING SAID, THE BALANCES HAVE BEEN AFFECTING THE SCORE WHEN IT IS UP.   THEY DON'T DO SECURED CARDS.  MY LENDER SAID HIS LAST DITCH SUGGESTION WOULD BE GET A SECURED CARD THROUGH PUBLIC SAVINGS BANK.  I LOOKED INTO IT AND THAT MAY BE WHAT I HAVE TO DO.  THEY DON'T DO A CREDIT CHECK,$300 TO SECURE, THEY REPORT AS A FULL ON CC NOT SECURED.  THEY REPORT TO ALL THREE BUREAUS THE FIRST MONTH YOU USE THE CARD.  A TWISTED SYSTEM THAT ASKS YOU TO ARTIFICIALLY INFLATE YOUR DEBT BY SECURING IT YOURSELF.  YOU KNOW IT EVEN SUGGESTS THIS ON THE EQ WEBSITE? 

I hope that gives you some ideas, and I'm sure that you'll get more input from others. Good luck!

YOU AND OTHERS HAVE BEEN A TON OF HELP AND I THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP AND CONTINUED SUPPORT.  BUT I'M JUST ABOUT BEAT DOWN NOW.  I'VE ALL BUT GIVEN UP ON THE MORTGAGE AND WHAT A SHAME AS THE IMPLICATIONS DOWN THE ROAD FOR ME ARE HUGELY POSITIVE IF I COULD GET IT DONE.  SO NOW I'M JUST TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO PAY THIS $6K I NEED TO PAY.  MY CU SAYS THAT IF MY SCORE GETS TO 650 THAT THEY WILL UP MY CARD TO $7000. SO I MAY JUST GO THAT ROUTE.  HOWEVER DOING THAT MAY CAUSE ME TO INCUR IN INQUIRY DING. 

AS IT STANDS TODAY THE ONLY THING UNPAID IS ACTUALLY PAID IT JUST HASN'T SHOWN UP AT EQ YET AND THE DUP OF THAT HASN'T DELETED FOR THE SAME REASON.

SO MY REPORTS ACTUALLY LOOK PRETTY DECENT.  SOME THINGS HAVE WENT AWAY AND ALL OTHERS ARE PAID.  BALANCE IS LOW ON MY CC ETC.  I GET WHAT YOU ARE SAYING ABOUT A CC, HAVING MORE THAN ONE.  BUT CAN'T SEEM TO GET ONE WITHOUT CROSSING SOME SORT OF THRESHOLD OF THE NUMBERS GAME.

GOT A PREQUAL THING FRO AMERICAN EXP ZINC CARD THE OTHER DAY.  BUT THAT'S A "CHARGE" CARD AND NOT REVOLVING.  WAS SUGGESTED TO ME TO GET A GAS CARD THAT THEY WERE USUALLY EASIER TO GET.

WHEW WHAT AN INCREDIBLY DRAINING AND EMOTIONALLY DEMORALIZING PROCESS.  ANYONE CHECK THE BANKS SCORE BEFORE THEY WERE BAILED OUT.  AND HEY I THINK IT HAD TO BE DONE, BUT C'MON.....GIVE ME THE LITTLE GUY A LITTLE CREDIT TOO.  I'VE PAID EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING.  I MAY HAVE EVEN PAID SOMETHING I DIDN'T OWE!  JUST TO BE SURE. 

[haulingthescoreup]

That's very weird about the inqs. Although they display for two years on the full report, they only factor in scoring for one year. So the cable inq doesn't matter any more, and neither does the older mortgage pull. That means that you only have two hard inqs affecting your EQ score. But the September 09 one will stop counting against you at some point in September.

How does your mortgage lender see your current scores if he hasn't pulled recently? --just noticed that on the dates of the inqs. Or maybe the inq for the reports that you're looking at doesn't display, but is counted, meaning that you have three within a year. (My eyes just crossed trying to figure how that would work.)

That May collection is the killer. Why it's not listed first on all three, I don't understand, but a three-month-old serious derog is doom for scores. When I had a 30-day late post back in 2007, I lost 50 points, bam, just like that. It was many months before my scores returned to where they had been, in the mid-600's. (That was my EQ 590, btw. You're doing better than I was!)

I completely agree that it's worth getting the better interest rate. I just don't know how fast it's going to happen, because that recent collection is an anchor pulling you down.

One thing that you might do, if you don't already, is subscribe to Scorewatch. Set your target score to your most current score (not higher, not lower, but the most recent known) and see if you see score rises at the beginning of each month. I'd be especially curious what would happen when that inq hits one year, although that's only going to affect your EQ score. But if you start seeing a rise in EQ, other than for the inq, you might start seeing the same for the other two. This would at least save you from having inqs hit all three scores when your lender checks for you. The TU score here is an older model than the one that your lender is using, so I don't know that it would be helpful to track that as well.

In the meantime, it looks like you need to just cut your losses on Experian, barring some miracle, and concentrate on EQ and TU. I don't understand why a score would have dropped when the CU account started reporting properly. I'm at a loss. I hope someone else reading gets a lightning flash on that one.

[Anonymous]

Hauling...that's two sets of eyes crossed! 

My lender pullted full tri merge report on the 12th with that info I posted.  He got updated info from EXP saying that the correction had been made but when her pulled the EXP score today, it dropped 3 points to 588.  So that's how he see's the scores and he sends me the actual report that he gets.

I trust him, always been straight with me and up front.  He's at a loss too.

As for TU score, I opted for the quartely monitoring here today and that score is at 607....last thursday, literally a week ago, it was 617... 

The May derog didn't hurt me nearly as bad as I thought it would.  in May my EQ FICO was 643 and when the derog hit me it went to 606.  It is now back to 636, it's puzzling that it hurt then rebounded so relatively quickly. 

As it stands now there are a couple of things that should be happening with the EQ soon:  Deletion of the dup collection account and the status of the GreenTree account changing from "re insvestigation" to just no dispute at all as I disputed it directly with Greentree then they placed the dispute on the report.  But I called EQ and told them I didn't dispute and that Greentree had sent info saying that they wouldn't be changing their reporting of the late payment from '06.  So naturally I told EQ there shouldn't be a "dispute" on there.  They assured me that if the dispute status went away that I would get a bump in score.  In fact once the status just changed to "re insvestigation"  I immediately received a "bump". 

As for TU, who knows what to do there.  The only thing I see that might help is having them update the info about the revolving account like I did with EXP.  However, we see what that did at EXP.  NADA  in fact it went down.   it's interesting.  A collection that was just deleted from EQ is still on TU.  If it would go away on TU that might help. 

It was simply luck that it went away.  The account was a collection account that like Greentree was in "re investigation" status under the comments section.  Well when they investigated, it deleted instead of just updated. So lucky for me!  But it didn't delete at TU.  So I'm not sure whether or not to jingle any "bells" if you will.

ugh I'm worn out with it.  I'd love a true true expert in this to look at my info and see what has happened over the past 3-4 months.

I'm serious about this:  If anyone would want to got to Washington to testify about the insane and unfair way this is done, I'd go in a minute. There's thousands of people out there not being treated consistently a fairly.

I'm about to take a trip.!

[Anonymous]

Hauling...that's two sets of eyes crossed! 

My lender pullted full tri merge report on the 12th with that info I posted.  He got updated info from EXP saying that the correction had been made but when her pulled the EXP score today, it dropped 3 points to 588.  So that's how he see's the scores and he sends me the actual report that he gets.

I trust him, always been straight with me and up front.  He's at a loss too.

As for TU score, I opted for the quartely monitoring here today and that score is at 607....last thursday, literally a week ago, it was 617... 

The May derog didn't hurt me nearly as bad as I thought it would.  in May my EQ FICO was 643 and when the derog hit me it went to 606.  It is now back to 636, it's puzzling that it hurt then rebounded so relatively quickly. 

As it stands now there are a couple of things that should be happening with the EQ soon:  Deletion of the dup collection account and the status of the GreenTree account changing from "re insvestigation" to just no dispute at all as I disputed it directly with Greentree then they placed the dispute on the report.  But I called EQ and told them I didn't dispute and that Greentree had sent info saying that they wouldn't be changing their reporting of the late payment from '06.  So naturally I told EQ there shouldn't be a "dispute" on there.  They assured me that if the dispute status went away that I would get a bump in score.  In fact once the status just changed to "re insvestigation"  I immediately received a "bump". 

As for TU, who knows what to do there.  The only thing I see that might help is having them update the info about the revolving account like I did with EXP.  However, we see what that did at EXP.  NADA  in fact it went down.   it's interesting.  A collection that was just deleted from EQ is still on TU.  If it would go away on TU that might help. 

It was simply luck that it went away.  The account was a collection account that like Greentree was in "re investigation" status under the comments section.  Well when they investigated, it deleted instead of just updated. So lucky for me!  But it didn't delete at TU.  So I'm not sure whether or not to jingle any "bells" if you will.

ugh I'm worn out with it.  I'd love a true true expert in this to look at my info and see what has happened over the past 3-4 months.

I'm serious about this:  If anyone would want to got to Washington to testify about the insane and unfair way this is done, I'd go in a minute. There's thousands of people out there not being treated consistently a fairly.

I'm about to take a trip.!

[Anonymous]

Please clarify with the lender what he is looking for. I would assume he is looking for a middle score of 620 or above. If this is the case, it seems that you should be focused on your TU score, as long as your EQ score doesn't take an unexpected dive.

Your TU 617 score hasn't gone down. The TU 617 score that your lender pulled is based on a 2004 version of the Fico scoring model. The TU 607 score that you obtained from MyFico is based on a 1998 version of the same scoring model and is almost always different from the 2004-based score. Bottom line - the 607 score is irrelevant and it appears that the 617 score that your lender pulled means you are only 3 points from qualifying.

Are you carrying revolving balances on any accounts reported by TU? If so, what are the balances and credit limits for those accounts. One of the quickest ways to improve a score is to get utilization below an index point that affects the Fico score.

Of course, you would want to eventually get the EX score to improve, but for refi purposes, the EX score would be irrelevant unless the lender has an unusual requirement for a minimum low score.

I'd focus on the TU report and score for now ...

[Anonymous]

Thanks for you reply.

As for revolving......  I have two account through my CU that are revolving.  One VISA and one OD protection.  For some reason they aren't listed as "revolving" on TU or EQ.  We were focusing on EXP because it was so low and just didn't "look" good.  So a letter from the CU stating that those accounts should be "revolving" was sent to EXP and thusly they changed to "revolving" as they should.  ($3000 avail/$51 balance on VISA)  but they didn't change the OD to "revolving". 

That being said, instead of the EXP score goiing up, after this change...a change that was suggested by several in the "business" and at the suggestion of a program called "Credit Expert"....the score not only didn't go up, it dropped 3 points. 

So I thought, like you, I would focus on the TU, only to find that based on what I pulled, it had went from 617 to 607.  I understand what you are saying about the different models being applied and no the lender doesn't require a "minimum" score, but there are underwriters above him that typically "like" to see all the score solidly in the "600's".  So we thought it woudln't be much of an issue to accomplish this.

At any rate, I'm afraid to contact TU and EQ and say, "Hey these accounts aren't listed as "revolving"...after having the score go down with the EXP change.   ON EQ, the balances are affecting the score as I've experienced this with the fluctuation of balances, but even still it isn't listed as "revolving". 

So I'm not sure what to do.  I'm afraid to initiate any activity in fear it will adversely affect some things.   Given that EQ has went up about 26 points in 2 weeks, maybe the other two will have similar luck.

There are a couple of collections but they've all been paid and there's nothing pending other than a incorrect duplication of a collection that only appears on EQ.  So I don't see anything other than contacting TU and letting them know that they accounts are incorrectly being listed as "installment". 

BTW, my CU only reports to EQ.