Experian / HIPAA Question...

[terrymurph]

Edited! Please refrain from posting web site addresses that promote credit repair, it violates myFICO forums terms of service and user guidelines.

Thank you for your cooperation!

--fused, myfico moderator

Message Edited by fused on 07-26-2009 06:52 PM

[Anonymous]

---

@wndrwmn78 wrote:

I believe they were shut down because the process was originated somewhere else, and this forum was considered a conflict to that.

---

I read that somewhere here too, but I doubt it. I think it was shut down because the HIPAA process reported here was false.

Medical creditors do not violate any laws by simply reporting that you owe them a debt, past or present, paid or unpaid. My guess is that someone read the part about "not having a business purpose", and interpreted (twisted) this into meaning if I pay the debt, they no longer have a "business purpose" and can't report it - BS.

First of all, what's the "business purpose" of reporting a debt to a CRA? The purpose of reporting a bad debt to a CRA is to inform other potential lenders of your past payment history - period. It is not technically a "collection" practice and therefore wasn't a "business purpose" to begin with as far as the OC is concerned. In fact, I'm saying it is a violation, either technically or at least against the purpose of the rule, to remove a paid debt before the 7 + 180 time limit. Why?

Let's say my girlfriend, who has an 800+ FICO, has never missed a payment on anything, ever (which is TRUE), and Me, have the same exact credit files as far as loans, credit cards, age of accounts, etc. HOWEVER, I have had a load of medical bills, unpaid phone bills, unpaid utility bills, etc., etc. I'm a deadbeat for many of my bills. I now decide I want to get a loan for a new sports car. I pay off some past creditors and get the baddies removed through PFD, HIPAA, etc. POOF - she and I now have the same credit profile, same score... If you were a lender, it would appear SHE and I were equal in creditworthiness, however, this is FALSE. She would not get behind on a bill of a quarter for a minute and I'm just waiting to put the screws to the next lender...

So in the end, what's the ramification(s) of all this? Well, the integrity of the credit files/scores eventually would be no good if everybody PFD'd, HIPAA'd, etc. The lender's would see this in their analysis when a high percentage of 750+ FICOs started going deadbeat... So for the occassional few who have beat the system, it won't hurt the integrity of the scoring much, but if a high percentage do, FICO is in trouble, and you and I will need a score of 840+ to get a loan... exaggeratted, but you get the idea.

[Anonymous]

There is a lot more to the "HIPAA" process then this.  First, the originating board has a post that says the "process" is proprietary to the creator and others can not work it without his consent. 

Second, it gives teeth to the Medical DV process to ensure that the CA has a right to collect the debt and there is no late payments to OC from your insurance, etc.  Some OC's send to CA's while payments are disputed with insurance companies, etc.  This just ensures they have a LEGAL right to collect.

Third, if you DO owe the OC money, then it ensures that the OC gets paid and not the CA for the "PURPOSE OF BEING ABLE TO DEDUCT IT" on your tax returns.

HIPAA is privacy, that is all.  The "process" is just to make sure everyone is following the rules and makes sure your legitimate debt is paid to whom it is owed and you get the IRS credit for paying it.  It is not a parlor trick.

[fused]

---

bigtim wrote:

---

@wndrwmn78 wrote:

I believe they were shut down because the process was originated somewhere else, and this forum was considered a conflict to that.

---

I read that somewhere here too, but I doubt it. I think it was shut down because the HIPAA process reported here was false.

Medical creditors do not violate any laws by simply reporting that you owe them a debt, past or present, paid or unpaid. My guess is that someone read the part about "not having a business purpose", and interpreted (twisted) this into meaning if I pay the debt, they no longer have a "business purpose" and can't report it - BS.

First of all, what's the "business purpose" of reporting a debt to a CRA? The purpose of reporting a bad debt to a CRA is to inform other potential lenders of your past payment history - period. It is not technically a "collection" practice and therefore wasn't a "business purpose" to begin with as far as the OC is concerned. In fact, I'm saying it is a violation, either technically or at least against the purpose of the rule, to remove a paid debt before the 7 + 180 time limit. Why?

Let's say my girlfriend, who has an 800+ FICO, has never missed a payment on anything, ever (which is TRUE), and Me, have the same exact credit files as far as loans, credit cards, age of accounts, etc. HOWEVER, I have had a load of medical bills, unpaid phone bills, unpaid utility bills, etc., etc. I'm a deadbeat for many of my bills. I now decide I want to get a loan for a new sports car. I pay off some past creditors and get the baddies removed through PFD, HIPAA, etc. POOF - she and I now have the same credit profile, same score... If you were a lender, it would appear SHE and I were equal in creditworthiness, however, this is FALSE. She would not get behind on a bill of a quarter for a minute and I'm just waiting to put the screws to the next lender...

So in the end, what's the ramification(s) of all this? Well, the integrity of the credit files/scores eventually would be no good if everybody PFD'd, HIPAA'd, etc. The lender's would see this in their analysis when a high percentage of 750+ FICOs started going deadbeat... So for the occassional few who have beat the system, it won't hurt the integrity of the scoring much, but if a high percentage do, FICO is in trouble, and you and I will need a score of 840+ to get a loan... exaggeratted, but you get the idea.

---

I respectfully disagree with you. HIPAA has very specific rules on how private health information can be shared. Med collections are entirely different than non-med collections.

[hawkfan]

^^^ That's how I think of it too Fused. Med collections are different because it's not necessarily "consumer" related type of debt. The circumstances are entirely different than a late loan payment or CC bill that goes to collections. Medical bills and insurance statements come out of the woodwork when you have any kind of procedure done nowadays, and it can be hard to decipher what you actually owe and who you owe it to. Meanwhile, you get left holding the 7-7.5 year bag which comes in the form of a collection(s) from a company or hospital service you never knew you owed in the first place. Your credit score gets dinged for something that's little to no indication of your credit worthiness. The only two collections I have on my report right now are medical collections. I narrowly avoided a third in '07 despite my efforts to stay on top of all of the different bills coming from a single procedure. It's actually unfair if you really think about it. At least with a loan or CC collection you see it coming. Then there's the privacy issue as well. It has to be a violation of some sort of privacy law to have a physician's group and a medical equipment provider as the two OCs on my collections accounts. There has to be something to even the playing field, and HIPAA seems to be a good tool for those stuck with paid medical collections on their report.

[wndrwmn78]

+1 to both posts above!

Medical collections are VERY different. Half of the time the OC doesn't submit the right claim to the insurance company and someone gets collected on a bill they don't owe. Or it's a small co-pay that wasn't billed correctly, and got lost in the system until it went to collections (such as in my case). 

Like you hawkfan, this $50 medical collection is the ONLY baddie on my reports...for something I wasn't aware that I owed until it was too late. I don't agree that my perfect history with every other account should get affected by this. I don't know if HIPAA will work for me, but I know I will dispute and/or GW the heck out of this until it's gone. I'm not sticking with it for 7 years if I don't have to! My biggest mistake was not being more informed, and paying the bill without asking for a PFD 2 years ago.

Also, IMO I think that it IS completely ethical to try and clean up other negative items on reports. Everyone makes mistakes, and deserves the chance to at least TRY and make amends. I can sympathize with someone who has had perfect credit history their entire life not thinking it's fair that someone else who has had 10 lates deleted has the same great score. But we all have to remember that someone else's good fortune does not take away from our own good fortune - it's an infinite supply, not a pie from which we each get a piece. 

Message Edited by wndrwmn78 on 07-27-2009 10:53 PM

[Anonymous]

---

@fused wrote:

I respectfully disagree with you. HIPAA has very specific rules on how private health information can be shared. Med collections are entirely different than non-med collections.

---

I think I've already made my postion very clear. Let's not kid ourselves here - NOBODY on here is complaining about real HIPAA violations - they simply want bad debts removed from their CRs. If anybody does think their rights have been violated, here is where you can file a REAL, legitimate complaint through the U.S. Health and Human Services Department, Office for Civil Rights - the federal agency who ENFORCES HIPAA rules and violations:

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/complaints/index.html

You may want to know their position though before you waste a lot of time, a direct quote from the site:

Does the HIPAA Privacy Rule prevent reporting to consumer credit reporting agencies or otherwise create any conflict with the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA)?

Answer: No.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And in reply to this:

"There is a lot more to the "HIPAA" process then this.  First, the originating board has a post that says the "process" is proprietary to the creator and others can not work it without his consent."

That's ridiculous. Anybody who tells you that using a bogus process to file a frivolous claim is against any sort of copyright or trademark rules is a fool. Look it up in Business Law 101.

The REAL reason the so-called "HIPAA Process" was removed from here, and rightly so by the smart powers that be, is because it is frivolous and against ethics. Find me one piece of genuine evidence to the contrary and I'll admit that I'm an idiot and use the "process" myself - I have past medical collections on my CR too, and they are the ONLY collections there - I would love to have them removed. 

[Anonymous]

---

@wndrwmn78 wrote:

Also, IMO I think that it IS completely ethical to try and clean up other negative items on reports. Everyone makes mistakes, and deserves the chance to at least TRY and make amends. I can sympathize with someone who has had perfect credit history their entire life not thinking it's fair that someone else who has had 10 lates deleted has the same great score. But we all have to remember that someone else's good fortune does not take away from our own good fortune - it's an infinite supply, not a pie from which we each get a piece. 

---

You think it's fair and ACCURATE reporting/scoring for someone to clear up say 20, 30, or even 50 derogatory accounts from the last two years, through HIPAA, PFD, GW letters, etc., and then to have an exact same credit file/score as someone who has never had a derog, ever? Respectfully, I think if you were in charge of the nation's credit laws, financing, whatever, I'm betting we'd all be in trouble.

Someone else's GOOD FORTUNE - infinite supply? There may be some "luck" involved, however, this "good fortune" you refer to is mostly due to responsible financial management and paying your bills on time, and this "infinite supply" can be depleted rather quickly if you don't comply... Good luck.

Message Edited by bigtim on 07-28-2009 05:29 AM

[wndrwmn78]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

---

@wndrwmn78 wrote:

Also, IMO I think that it IS completely ethical to try and clean up other negative items on reports. Everyone makes mistakes, and deserves the chance to at least TRY and make amends. I can sympathize with someone who has had perfect credit history their entire life not thinking it's fair that someone else who has had 10 lates deleted has the same great score. But we all have to remember that someone else's good fortune does not take away from our own good fortune - it's an infinite supply, not a pie from which we each get a piece. 

---

You think it's fair and ACCURATE reporting/scoring for someone to clear up say 20, 30, or even 50 derogatory accounts from the last two years, through HIPAA, PFD, GW letters, etc., and then to have an exact same credit file/score as someone who has never had a derog, ever? Respectfully, I think if you were in charge of the nation's credit laws, financing, whatever, I'm betting we'd all be in trouble.

Someone else's GOOD FORTUNE - infinite supply? There may be some "luck" involved, however, this "good fortune" you refer to is mostly due to responsible financial management and paying your bills on time, and this "infinite supply" can be depleted rather quickly if you don't comply... Good luck.

Message Edited by bigtim on 07-28-2009 05:29 AM

---

Good fortune would be referring to never having fallen into a situation where you run into financial trouble and cannot pay your bills on time. Not everyone is irresponsible; some people have simply had hard times in their lives, whether it be a sick child in the hospital, a lay-off, or losing your home because your job transferred you and you couldn't sell your home because the value had drastically dropped. Unfortunately not everyone has a high salary or a strong support system to fall back on in these circumstances. Even a credit card with a balance of only $500 could turn into a nightmare on a credit report when your income stops or other bills pile up.

A similar situation would be car insurance...I have never gotten a ticket in my life...but someone with 2 speeding tickets can take a class to get the points dropped from their record. They then end up with a similar record to me. Well, I'm okay with that because they took the time to realize their mistake and tried to fix it. I can still feel proud of myself for having a clean record. The same with credit; I don't pretend to know how creditors think, but I would think they wouldn't GW a bunch of lates if they haven't seen a strong history of fiscal responsibility since the delinquencies. And if someone has had 50 lates deleted, I would consider that an extremely rare situation.

Basically my post was meant to convey my confusion as to why someone would be bitter over someone else's mistakes being cleared up. I just don't understand why it's a concern if it doesn't affect one's own life. I don't think the current credit crisis should be definitively dumped on the shoulders of anyone who defaulted on a loan or credit card, because there are so many factors that went into it. Instead let's support them with repairing their credit.

With this post I will respectfully remove myself from the discussion, as my original post was simply a question that needed an answer, and the thread has taken a completely different turn. I hope I have not offended anyone with my positive thinking.

[Anonymous]

---

@wndrwmn78 wrote:

Basically my post was meant to convey my confusion as to why someone would be bitter over someone else's mistakes being cleared up. I just don't understand why it's a concern if it doesn't affect one's own life.

---

Exactly - why would someone else care if it doesn't affect them? You answered your own question - it DOES affect them , therefore they should be concerned - I explained this already. Let me clarify:

Yours & mine & everybody's credit file/score is a PREDICTOR of the probability that you or I will default or be late, etc. in the future on money loaned to us. Therefore, if you have a score of say 615 because you have several derogatory accounts, collections, etc., and my girlfriend has a score of 820 because she has never missed a payment, manages her money great, has never had the misfortune of being billed for expensive medical treatment to save her daughter etc., then by report/score alone - she is the much lesser risk of default.

You, on the otherhand, PFD, HIPAA, GW all of your derogatories from your file and bingo - you are now an 820. From a lender's perspective, everything else being equal, you and she are now exactly equal in creditworthiness. This is NOT accurate. Based on your past history, you are much more likely to default on a debt than she is - and your true FICO prior to the deletes would reflect this.

So how does that affect me or anybody else? Well see, if a large percentage of people manipulate the scoring, the lenders will now find in their analysis that a higher percentage of higher FICOs (now FAKOs) are defaulting, therefore raising the minimum score for credit, finance rates, etc. to offset the costs of these higher default rates - thus affecting all of us negatively. That's why we should all care.