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@RobertEG wrote:Precisely.
FCRA 605(a)(4) says it drops at 7 years from an unspecific date.
That is precisley why FCRA 605(c) was enacted. To make the date specifc. But unfortunaly, FCRA 605(c) interjected this 180-day extension period, so still made the date still a bit murky for another half-year. It is now 7 years from the DOFD, plus an additional, potential 180-day window before any violation of FCRA 605(a)(4) can be enforced.
FCRA 605(c) gave the CRAs an additional period of not more than 180-days to finally cease all inclusion of a CO or CA in a consmer credit report beyond the 7-year period set forth in FCRA 605(a)(4).
Bottom line is that the DOFD sets the one single, date-certain from which CR deletion must be calculated. FCRA 605(c) simply says that there is no vioation of further inclusion in a consumer's CR until 7 years, plus 180-days, from that DOFD. The CRA can delete tomorrow, if they choose. The only issue is when continued credit credit report inclusion beyond 7 1/2 years becomes a violation of FCRA 605(a)(4), as modified by FCRA 605(c).
That is clearly, in my opinion, 7 1/2 years from the DOFD. One final date-certain.
(and yes, I have read most of the legislative history of FCRA 605(c). So has the FTC)
+1
@RobertEG wrote:Precisely.
FCRA 605(a)(4) says it drops at 7 years from an unspecific date.
That is precisley why FCRA 605(c) was enacted. To make the date specifc. But unfortunaly, FCRA 605(c) interjected this 180-day extension period, so still made the date still a bit murky for another half-year. It is now 7 years from the DOFD, plus an additional, potential 180-day window before any violation of FCRA 605(a)(4) can be enforced.
FCRA 605(c) gave the CRAs an additional period of not more than 180-days to finally cease all inclusion of a CO or CA in a consmer credit report beyond the 7-year period set forth in FCRA 605(a)(4).
Bottom line is that the DOFD sets the one single, date-certain from which CR deletion must be calculated. FCRA 605(c) simply says that there is no vioation of further inclusion in a consumer's CR until 7 years, plus 180-days, from that DOFD. The CRA can delete tomorrow, if they choose. The only issue is when continued credit credit report inclusion beyond 7 1/2 years becomes a violation of FCRA 605(a)(4), as modified by FCRA 605(c).
That is clearly, in my opinion, 7 1/2 years from the DOFD. One final date-certain.
(and yes, I have read most of the legislative history of FCRA 605(c). So has the FTC)
You’re still wrong and the way you are interpreting the situation is common to laymen everywhere who do not understand how legislation is written and / or the subtle nuances in the actual legislation itself.
The derogatory must fall off seven years after charge off or assignment to collections. Charge off or assignment to collections must take place within a certain time frame which is, in general, 180 days or less. Simple language requirements aside, that is precisely why the FTC is always saying the seven-year period may begin no more than 180 days instead of saying it begins exactly at 180 days.
I'm including these sections of the FCRA for reference.
§ 605. Requirements relating to information contained in consumer reports [15 U.S.C. §1681c]
(a) Information excluded from consumer reports. Except as authorized under subsection
(b) of this section, no consumer reporting agency may make any consumer report
containing any of the following items of information:
(1) Cases under title 11 [United States Code] or under the Bankruptcy Act that, from
the date of entry of the order for relief or the date of adjudication, as the case may
be, antedate the report by more than 10 years.
(2) Civil suits, civil judgments, and records of arrest that from date of entry, antedate
the report by more than seven years or until the governing statute of limitations
has expired, whichever is the longer period.
(3) Paid tax liens which, from date of payment, antedate the report by more than
seven years.
(4) Accounts placed for collection or charged to profit and loss which antedate the
report by more than seven years
-------------------------------------------------------
(c) Running of Reporting Period
(1) In general. The 7-year period referred to in paragraphs (4) and (6)3
of subsection (a) shall begin, with respect to any delinquent account that is placed for collection
(internally or by referral to a third party, whichever is earlier), charged to profit and
loss, or subjected to any similar action, upon the expiration of the 180-day period
beginning on the date of the commencement of the delinquency which immediately
preceded the collection activity, charge to profit and loss, or similar action
While the interpretation above by O6 definitely has its merits (and, in fact, caused me to reread these sections over and over again, to rethink my position...and I almost reversed myself), it seems to me that Paragraph 4 is subject to a qualifier set by Subsection C (1).
The 180 day period is not limited by the CO date, nor by the date of placement for collection. Had the phrase "whichever is earlier" been placed at the end of Subsection C (1), I would agree with O6's assessment. But the phrase as it stands, where it stands, clearly refers only to the earlier of internal or third party collection actions, further defining only the DOFD, and not limiting the 180 day period whatsoever.
I also note that this law concerns CRA reporting only. It does not mandate that a creditor charge off an account or send it to collections. The creditor can sit on the account forever if he so chooses. But if and when any neg is passed along to the CRA, that neg must come off in 7 yrs + 180 days max from DOFD.
Not too shabby for a layman, eh?
@Anonymous wrote:I'm including these sections of the FCRA for reference.
§ 605. Requirements relating to information contained in consumer reports [15 U.S.C. §1681c]
(a) Information excluded from consumer reports. Except as authorized under subsection
(b) of this section, no consumer reporting agency may make any consumer report
containing any of the following items of information:
(1) Cases under title 11 [United States Code] or under the Bankruptcy Act that, from
the date of entry of the order for relief or the date of adjudication, as the case may
be, antedate the report by more than 10 years.
(2) Civil suits, civil judgments, and records of arrest that from date of entry, antedate
the report by more than seven years or until the governing statute of limitations
has expired, whichever is the longer period.
(3) Paid tax liens which, from date of payment, antedate the report by more than
seven years.
(4) Accounts placed for collection or charged to profit and loss which antedate the
report by more than seven years
-------------------------------------------------------
(c) Running of Reporting Period
(1) In general. The 7-year period referred to in paragraphs (4) and (6)3of subsection (a) shall begin, with respect to any delinquent account that is placed for collection
(internally or by referral to a third party, whichever is earlier), charged to profit and
loss, or subjected to any similar action, upon the expiration of the 180-day period
beginning on the date of the commencement of the delinquency which immediately
preceded the collection activity, charge to profit and loss, or similar action
While the interpretation above by O6 definitely has its merits (and, in fact, caused me to reread these sections over and over again, to rethink my position...and I almost reversed myself), it seems to me that Paragraph 4 is subject to a qualifier set by Subsection C (1).
The 180 day period is not limited by the CO date, nor by the date of placement for collection. Had the phrase "whichever is earlier" been placed at the end of Subsection C (1), I would agree with O6's assessment. But the phrase as it stands, where it stands, clearly refers only to the earlier of internal or third party collection actions, further defining only the DOFD, and not limiting the 180 day period whatsoever.
I also note that this law concerns CRA reporting only. It does not mandate that a creditor charge off an account or send it to collections. The creditor can sit on the account forever if he so chooses. But if and when any neg is passed along to the CRA, that neg must come off in 7 yrs + 180 days max from DOFD.
Not too shabby for a layman, eh?
Not too shabby, except ...
... the legistative history (eq. committee hearings) shows that this is an "up to 180 day" term. 180 days is set as the outer limit because banks and financial companies have 180 days within which they have to remove bad debts from their books.
Were it a strict 180 days then Congress would have wrote 605(a)(4) to read "seven and one half years" right from the start or easily written that the data must be removed 7.5 years from DOFD.
AFTER READING THESE POSTS IAM MORE CONFUSED THEN EVER. WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE SO COMPLICATED?? DO I NEED TO HIRE AN ATTORNEY?? I'M JUST GOING TO WRITE A LETTER ..(FTC??)... AND ASK THEM TO FIGURE IT OUT FOR ME.. WHO DO I SEND THE $10.50 CHECK TO??? AND DO I HAVE TO WAIT 7.5 YEARS TO GET A RESPONSE?? I'M A USC GRAD AND I FEEL PRETTY STUPID RIGHT ABOUT NOW.
No, it is not complicated!
Very simply stated.
The “date of commencement of the delinquency which immediately preceded the collection activity” referred to in FCRA 605(c) is, as both the legislative history, and the ruling by the FTC makes very clear, the date that we commonly refer to as the “DOFD.” Period. Date of reporting of a CO or CA has no remote relevance under the statute for what a CRA can include in their credit reports once the period under FCRA 605(a)(4), and (c) have expired.
The seven year period referred to in the parent section of statute, FCRA 605(a)(4), sets a 7 year period for cessation of inclusion of the CA in any credit report issued by a CRA.
But FCRA 605(c) clearly establishes the DOFD as the controlling date, and then went on to modify FCRA 605(a)(4) by granting the CRA an extension of the credit report exclusion provision of FCRA 605(a)(4) for up to 180-days from the date of the DOFD to finally cease inclusion of any CO or CA in a consumer CR.. It really does not matter why congress tacked on this 180-days. No reference is ever made to any relevance to any date of OC or CA reporting to the dates specified in those two sections of statute.
Bottom line, with all legal arguments to the contrary, no collection or charge off can continue to be included in any credit report issued by a CRA after 7 ½ years from the DOFD on the OC account
@RobertEG wrote:No, it is not complicated!
Very simply stated.
The “date of commencement of the delinquency which immediately preceded the collection activity” referred to in FCRA 605(c) is, as both the legislative history, and the ruling by the FTC makes very clear, the date that we commonly refer to as the “DOFD.” Period. Date of reporting of a CO or CA has no remote relevance under the statute for what a CRA can include in their credit reports once the period under FCRA 605(a)(4), and (c) have expired.
The seven year period referred to in the parent section of statute, FCRA 605(a)(4), sets a 7 year period for cessation of inclusion of the CA in any credit report issued by a CRA.
But FCRA 605(c) clearly establishes the DOFD as the controlling date, and then went on to modify FCRA 605(a)(4) by granting the CRA an extension of the credit report exclusion provision of FCRA 605(a)(4) for up to 180-days from the date of the DOFD to finally cease inclusion of any CO or CA in a consumer CR.. It really does not matter why congress tacked on this 180-days. No reference is ever made to any relevance to any date of OC or CA reporting to the dates specified in those two sections of statute.
Bottom line, with all legal arguments to the contrary, no collection or charge off can continue to be included in any credit report issued by a CRA after 7 ½ years from the DOFD on the OC account
Also completely false and arises from a simplistic view of complex language.
The FCRA never states DOFD. It states delinquency that resulted in the CO or CA. If there is an acceleration clause, the date your last payment is made is irrelevant.
I have no more desire for dispute, or to post further on this lengthy thread..
I think congress and the FTC have clarified this issue. I will let them speak for me.
@RobertEG wrote:I have no more desire for dispute, or to post further on this lengthy thread..
I think congress and the FTC have clarified this issue. I will let them speak for me.
They have spoken. You're unable to hear them.
English is a precise language. Where exactly do we see anything that states "date of first delinquency"?
§ 605.(c)(1) In general. The 7-year period referred to in paragraphs (4) and (6) 3 of subsection
(a) shall begin, with respect to any delinquent account that is placed for collection
(internally or by referral to a third party, whichever is earlier), charged to profit and
loss, or subjected to any similar action, upon the expiration of the 180-day period
beginning on the date of the commencement of the delinquency which immediately
preceded the collection activity, charge to profit and loss, or similar action.
While in probably the majority of cases the delinquency which immediately preceded a chargeoff or collection activity may be the first time someone was delinquent in payments, it is an old wives tale that it necessarily must apply to all cases. I know that may be a difficult concept for some people to grasp, but then so was the idea about the Earth being round and look where we are today.
Many mortgage contracts, automobile loan agreements and loan agreements for major installment pruchases carry an acceleration clause. Trying to simplify this as much as possible, an acceleration clause means you are in default when the lender damned pleases -- no sooner, no later -- and has, in many cases, nothing to do with whether or not you have made your payments on time. If there is an acceleration clause, you are delinquent when the lender says you are, period, and nothing short of The Second Coming can change that.
In, for example, auto loans acceleration clauses can declare default if you use your vehicle in contests of speed or you allow unlicensed, uninsured motorists to operate your vehicle. An acceleration clause can state you are not in default for any missed payments until the creditor decides they have had enough and calls it quits. If you've signed that contract, then it may well be your second or even third missed payment that becomes the delinquency immediately preceding the chargeoff or collection activity. It is precisely situations such as these why Congress never, ever stated anything about "date of first delinquency" and used better, more precise language that can encompass almost every situation instead of those few simple situations that most people assume apply to every credit transaction.
O6, that was a cheap personal shot. My hearing is fine.