50K Credit Limits & FICO 8 Utilization Testing Thread

[JLK93]

My 51.5K Discover card reported a balance of $904. It was the only card reporting a balance. If the scores drop significantly, it means that the balance is being excluded from overall utilization calculations, individual utilization calculations or both. If the scores remain unchanged, the balance is being included in all utilization calculations.

The results:

FICO 8: All scores, including industry enhanced scores, were unchanged. My conclusion is that the balance was included in both the individual and overall utilization calculations. 

The balance on the card was 1.7% of the credit limit. It remains to be seen whether a lower balance will also be included in utilization calculations. There may be a cutoff point (maybe 1%) that determines whether the balance is included in utilization. For the next test, I will let a balance of $3 report on the same card. I will report the results in this thread. Any suggestions for future tests are welcome.

FICO 9: The results were the same as for FICO 8.

FICO 04: My EX 04 score dropped by 19 points. There have, of course, been previous tests showing that 50K credit limits are excluded from FICO 04 utilization calculations.

FICO 98: My EX 98 scores dropped by 13 points. This is the same drop experienced when I previously tested a 45.5K card. In both cases the balance is being excluded from utilization calculations. The cutoff is possibly 35K. I have 30K and 35K cards, but I don't know if I'll ever have time to narrow down this cutoff point.

[newhis]

Good info, thanks.

[SouthJamaica]

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@JLK93 wrote:

My 51.5K Discover card reported a balance of $904. It was the only card reporting a balance. If the scores drop significantly, it means that the balance is being excluded from overall utilization calculations, individual utilization calculations or both. If the scores remain unchanged, the balance is being included in all utilization calculations.

The results:

FICO 8: All scores, including industry enhanced scores, were unchanged. My conclusion is that the balance was included in both the individual and overall utilization calculations. 

The balance on the card was 1.7% of the credit limit. It remains to be seen whether a lower balance will also be included in utilization calculations. There may be a cutoff point (maybe 1%) that determines whether the balance is included in utilization. For the next test, I will let a balance of $3 report on the same card. I will report the results in this thread. Any suggestions for future tests are welcome.

FICO 9: The results were the same as for FICO 8.

FICO 04: My EX 04 score dropped by 19 points. There have, of course, been previous tests showing that 50K credit limits are excluded from FICO 04 utilization calculations.

FICO 98: My EX 98 scores dropped by 13 points. This is the same drop experienced when I previously tested a 45.5K card. In both cases the balance is being excluded from utilization calculations. The cutoff is possibly 35K. I have 30K and 35K cards, but I don't know if I'll ever have time to narrow down this cutoff point.

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I don't get it. Since you recently added a large number of new inquiries, how do you know that didn't cause the score drop of EX 4 and EX 98? I'm told that those older scores are more inquiry sensitive.

[JLK93]

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@SouthJamaica wrote:

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@JLK93 wrote:

My 51.5K Discover card reported a balance of $904. It was the only card reporting a balance. If the scores drop significantly, it means that the balance is being excluded from overall utilization calculations, individual utilization calculations or both. If the scores remain unchanged, the balance is being included in all utilization calculations.

The results:

FICO 8: All scores, including industry enhanced scores, were unchanged. My conclusion is that the balance was included in both the individual and overall utilization calculations. 

The balance on the card was 1.7% of the credit limit. It remains to be seen whether a lower balance will also be included in utilization calculations. There may be a cutoff point (maybe 1%) that determines whether the balance is included in utilization. For the next test, I will let a balance of $3 report on the same card. I will report the results in this thread. Any suggestions for future tests are welcome.

FICO 9: The results were the same as for FICO 8.

FICO 04: My EX 04 score dropped by 19 points. There have, of course, been previous tests showing that 50K credit limits are excluded from FICO 04 utilization calculations.

FICO 98: My EX 98 scores dropped by 13 points. This is the same drop experienced when I previously tested a 45.5K card. In both cases the balance is being excluded from utilization calculations. The cutoff is possibly 35K. I have 30K and 35K cards, but I don't know if I'll ever have time to narrow down this cutoff point.

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I don't get it. Since you recently added a large number of new inquiries, how do you know that didn't cause the score drop of EX 4 and EX 98? I'm told that those older scores are more inquiry sensitive.

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Yes, you are correct. The first 3 inquiries are scored more harshly by the older scoring models. This is especially true for FICO 98. My data suggests that the first inquiry is worth about 20 points under EX 98.

I have zero inquiries and new accounts on Experian in the last 16 months.

With one card reporting a balance, my EX 98 score has consistently been 828 for the last few months. Today it dropped to 815. That is exactly the same drop it experienced in November when only a 45.5K card reported a balance.

With one card reporting a balance, my EX 04 score has consistently been 834 for the last few months. Today it dropped to 815. It did not drop in November when only the 45.5K card reported a balance. That result suggests that 50K is the cutoff point for FICO 4.

With one card reporting a balance, all of my Experian scores have been consistent since September. There has not been even 1 point of deviation for any scoring model.

If the balance on my 51.5K Discover card was not being included in individual as well as overall utilization, it would have been scored as zero cards reporting a balance.

Yesterday, my EX 08 score was 850. If the 51.5K card were not being included in utilization calculations, my EX 08 and EX 9 scores would have dropped to approximately 836 and 847 respectively. That is the drop they experienced when only an Amex charge card reported a balance. That was also scored as zero cards reporting a balance. However, both scores remained unchanged at 850.

With one card reporting a balance, my EX 08 Bankcard Enhanced score has consistently been 900 since September. It is unchanged at 900 today. This further demonstrates that the balance of the 51.5K card is being included in all utilization calculations. In fact, none of my EX 08 industry enhanced scores changed today.

[Thomas_Thumb]

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@JLK93 wrote:

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@SouthJamaica wrote:

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@JLK93 wrote:

My 51.5K Discover card reported a balance of $904. It was the only card reporting a balance. If the scores drop significantly, it means that the balance is being excluded from overall utilization calculations, individual utilization calculations or both. If the scores remain unchanged, the balance is being included in all utilization calculations.

The results:

FICO 8: All scores, including industry enhanced scores, were unchanged. My conclusion is that the balance was included in both the individual and overall utilization calculations. 

The balance on the card was 1.7% of the credit limit. It remains to be seen whether a lower balance will also be included in utilization calculations. There may be a cutoff point (maybe 1%) that determines whether the balance is included in utilization. For the next test, I will let a balance of $3 report on the same card. I will report the results in this thread. Any suggestions for future tests are welcome.

FICO 9: The results were the same as for FICO 8.

FICO 04: My EX 04 score dropped by 19 points. There have, of course, been previous tests showing that 50K credit limits are excluded from FICO 04 utilization calculations.

FICO 98: My EX 98 scores dropped by 13 points. This is the same drop experienced when I previously tested a 45.5K card. In both cases the balance is being excluded from utilization calculations. The cutoff is possibly 35K. I have 30K and 35K cards, but I don't know if I'll ever have time to narrow down this cutoff point.

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I don't get it. Since you recently added a large number of new inquiries, how do you know that didn't cause the score drop of EX 4 and EX 98? I'm told that those older scores are more inquiry sensitive.

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Yes, you are correct. The first 3 inquiries are scored more harshly by the older scoring models. This is especially true for FICO 98. My data suggests that the first inquiry is worth about 20 points under EX 98.

I have zero inquiries and new accounts on Experian in the last 16 months.

With one card reporting a balance, my EX 98 score has consistently been 828 for the last few months. Today it dropped to 815. That is exactly the same drop it experienced in November when only a 45.5K card reported a balance.

With one card reporting a balance, my EX 04 score has consistently been 834 for the last few months. Today it dropped to 815. It did not drop in November when only the 45.5K card reported a balance. That result suggests that 50K is the cutoff point for FICO 4.

With one card reporting a balance, all of my Experian scores have been consistent since September. There has not been even 1 point of deviation for any scoring model.

If the balance on my 51.5K Discover card was not being included in individual as well as overall utilization, it would have been scored as zero cards reporting a balance.

Yesterday, my EX 08 score was 850. If the 51.5K card were not being included in utilization calculations, my EX 08 and EX 9 scores would have dropped to approximately 836 and 847 respectively. That is the drop they experienced when only an Amex charge card reported a balance. That was also scored as zero cards reporting a balance. However, both scores remained unchanged at 850.

With one card reporting a balance, my EX 08 Bankcard Enhanced score has consistently been 900 since September. It is unchanged at 900 today. This further demonstrates that the balance of the 51.5K card is being included in all utilization calculations. In fact, none of my EX 08 industry enhanced scores changed today.

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JLK93 -

Based on your data along with others it looks like Fico views revolving credit cards as follows:

1) Fico 98 - credit cards with limits above $35k not factored into utilization nor revolving cards reporting balances

2) Fico 04 - credit cards with limits above $50k not factored into utilization nor revolving cards reporting balances.

3) Fico 8 & 9 - credit cards with $50k limit are included but some higher limit (or no limit) for exclusion may exist.

Question: My understanding was that you have some new accounts under 12 months age. I can see how EX may not have been subject to inquiries relating to the new accounts. However, I would anticipate any new account (under 3 months, 6 months or 12 months age depending on how one defines new) would show on all 3 CRAs.

What is your youngest account age on each of the three CRAs?

[JLK93]

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@Thomas_Thumb wrote:

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@JLK93 wrote:

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@SouthJamaica wrote:

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@JLK93 wrote:

My 51.5K Discover card reported a balance of $904. It was the only card reporting a balance. If the scores drop significantly, it means that the balance is being excluded from overall utilization calculations, individual utilization calculations or both. If the scores remain unchanged, the balance is being included in all utilization calculations.

The results:

FICO 8: All scores, including industry enhanced scores, were unchanged. My conclusion is that the balance was included in both the individual and overall utilization calculations. 

The balance on the card was 1.7% of the credit limit. It remains to be seen whether a lower balance will also be included in utilization calculations. There may be a cutoff point (maybe 1%) that determines whether the balance is included in utilization. For the next test, I will let a balance of $3 report on the same card. I will report the results in this thread. Any suggestions for future tests are welcome.

FICO 9: The results were the same as for FICO 8.

FICO 04: My EX 04 score dropped by 19 points. There have, of course, been previous tests showing that 50K credit limits are excluded from FICO 04 utilization calculations.

FICO 98: My EX 98 scores dropped by 13 points. This is the same drop experienced when I previously tested a 45.5K card. In both cases the balance is being excluded from utilization calculations. The cutoff is possibly 35K. I have 30K and 35K cards, but I don't know if I'll ever have time to narrow down this cutoff point.

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I don't get it. Since you recently added a large number of new inquiries, how do you know that didn't cause the score drop of EX 4 and EX 98? I'm told that those older scores are more inquiry sensitive.

---

Yes, you are correct. The first 3 inquiries are scored more harshly by the older scoring models. This is especially true for FICO 98. My data suggests that the first inquiry is worth about 20 points under EX 98.

I have zero inquiries and new accounts on Experian in the last 16 months.

With one card reporting a balance, my EX 98 score has consistently been 828 for the last few months. Today it dropped to 815. That is exactly the same drop it experienced in November when only a 45.5K card reported a balance.

With one card reporting a balance, my EX 04 score has consistently been 834 for the last few months. Today it dropped to 815. It did not drop in November when only the 45.5K card reported a balance. That result suggests that 50K is the cutoff point for FICO 4.

With one card reporting a balance, all of my Experian scores have been consistent since September. There has not been even 1 point of deviation for any scoring model.

If the balance on my 51.5K Discover card was not being included in individual as well as overall utilization, it would have been scored as zero cards reporting a balance.

Yesterday, my EX 08 score was 850. If the 51.5K card were not being included in utilization calculations, my EX 08 and EX 9 scores would have dropped to approximately 836 and 847 respectively. That is the drop they experienced when only an Amex charge card reported a balance. That was also scored as zero cards reporting a balance. However, both scores remained unchanged at 850.

With one card reporting a balance, my EX 08 Bankcard Enhanced score has consistently been 900 since September. It is unchanged at 900 today. This further demonstrates that the balance of the 51.5K card is being included in all utilization calculations. In fact, none of my EX 08 industry enhanced scores changed today.

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JLK93 -

Based on your data along with others it looks like Fico views revolving credit cards as follows:

1) Fico 98 - credit cards with limits above $35k not factored into utilization nor revolving cards reporting balances

2) Fico 04 - credit cards with limits above $50k not factored into utilization nor revolving cards reporting balances.

3) Fico 8 & 9 - credit cards with $50k limit are included but some higher limit (or no limit) for exclusion may exist. No one has tested a 50K card with a small balance. It is possible that 50K cards with smaller balances (perhaps <1%) could be excluded from utilization calculations. I will find out in a week or two.

Question: My understanding was that you have some new accounts under 12 months age. I can see how EX may not have been subject to inquiries relating to the new accounts. However, I would anticipate any new account (under 3 months, 6 months or 12 months age depending on how one defines new) would show on all 3 CRAs.

What is your youngest account age on each of the three CRAs?

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My youngest account on all the CRAs is 16 months. Navy Federal Visa should report to Experian around February 9. The 8 Capital One apps were declined due to Experian being frozen. I use Capital One for cannon fodder.

[Revelate]

Nothing new to add just wanted to thank you JLK for firming this up.

[Anonymous]

JLK we appreciate you taking the time to do this test and post the results.  I know CGID will appreciate this when he reads it as well.

[Anonymous]

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@Anonymous wrote:

JLK we appreciate you taking the time to do this test and post the results.  I know CGID will appreciate this when he reads it as well.

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Yup, for sure.  I am most grateful.  Thanks JLK.  And thanks too for placing the results in a clear highly organized format at the top.  You'll be able to edi/update that top post as anything new/significant comes in so that readers can get to the bottom line easily. 

For what it is worth, I'd like to throw out a quick thought, and I hope everyone will take it in the generous and well-intentioned spirit that I make it.  Part of why I am glad there's a summary at the top is that the subsequent discussion began to lose me, due to the liberal use of the Quote button.  This is a common issue here on the forum where each new post can recapitulate three novels worth of previous posts.  I think the Q-button is immensely valuable when it is used judiciously, perhaps in conjunction with deleting all text except the relevant small piece.  But when it is used as a default it can make it harder to follow what new idea is being said.

Totally not criticising anybody!  I am sure I myself do this myself.  But as some of the people who write a lot for the forum, I just thought you as my friends here might be interested in me throwing that thought out -- again, for what it may be worth.

PS.  I'll be curious to see if any monster limit is excluded for FICO 8/9.  E.g. 70k?  90k?  Of course we'll need someone with a truly obscene CL to test such a thing.  The practical question for myself has been answered though, which is that if I want to increase some CLs further (beyond my current 27k individual) I can do that with no real restriction.  Many thanks to all.

[JLK93]

My Discover card with a $51.5K limit reported a balance of $5 this morning. It is the only card reporting a balance. Experian FICO 8 and FICO 9 scores remained unchanged. If the balance was being excluded from utilization calculations it would be scored as zero cards reporting a balance and the score would have dropped. It seems that the balance is being included in both individual and overall utilization.

To recap:

With one card reporting a balance all Experian FICO scores have been stable since September.

In a previous test, a 45.5K card was the only card reporting a balance. EX 98 dropped 13 points. FICO issued the negative reason statement “There are no recent balances on your revolving credit accounts.” FICO 04, 8 and 9 scores were unchanged.

In the first part of the current test, a 51.5K Discover Card was the only card reporting a balance. The balance was 1.7% of the card’s credit limit.

The results were as follows:

(1) Experian FICO 98 dropped 13 points. FICO issued the negative reason statement “There are no recent balances on your revolving credit accounts.”

(2) Experian FICO 04 dropped 15 points. Equifax FICO 04 dropped 9 points. FICO issued the negative reason statement “There are no recent balances on your revolving credit accounts.”

(3) Experian FICO 8 and 9 scores were unchanged.

In the second part of the current test, a 51.5K Discover Card was once again the only card reporting a balance. The balance, in this case, was reduced to $5.

Experian FICO 8 and 9 scores remained unchanged.

If the balance was being excluded from individual or overall utilization calculations, it would be scored as zero cards reporting a balance, and the score would drop. The FICO scoring impact of zero cards with a balance is well known.

Conclusion:  A 51.5K card was tested as the only card reporting a balance. The balance was 1.7% in the first part of the test and $5 in the second part of the test. In both cases FICO 8 and FICO 9 scores remained unchanged. Therefore, I must concluded that a card with a $51.5K limit is included in both individual and overall utilization calculations by FICO 8 and FICO 9.

I have only Discover and PenFed cards with limits of at least 50K. It would be desirable if someone would repeat this same test with a 50K Chase or Citi card.