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FICO vs. VantageScore

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Anonymous
Not applicable

FICO vs. VantageScore

Over this past weekend I signed up for a 7 day free trial at zendough.com (TransUnions credit monitoring site) and was given my TU credit report as well as a VantageScore.  I was trying to acquire my FICO score at the time for free.  I have a ScoreWatch account with myFICO but didn't want to pay the ~$15 just to see my score.  Anyhow, I just got off the phone with a CSR at zendough.com to cancel my account.  When he asked why I wanted to cancel my account I told him I was under the impression that I was going to receive my FICO score, not a VantageScore.  He replied with this long, drawn-out explaination of how all three credit beraues have come together to generate a single score, the VantageScore to better supply an accurate depiction of a consumer's credit-worthiness.  I'm paraphrasing...  Anyhow, he went on to say that the credit reporting agencies will soon not offer FICO scores to consumers to help alleviate confusion with the new VantageScore and the revamping of the FICO scoring model that is forthcoming...  I told him that local institutions are currently using my FICO scores to determine my credit-worthiness and that knowing my VantageScore has no value to me at this time.  He went on and on about the VantageScore benefits and blah, blah, blah.  I finally got him to cancel my account but now I'm wondering how this new information is going to impact the credit world, if at all.  EX won't sell FICO's to consumer's anymore so will TU and EQ soon follow suite and only offer this VS? (new abbreviation!?!)

 

I find it insulting that financial institutions could potentially be able to determine my credit-worthiness based upon a secretly generated number that I can't see myself until applying for credit (assuming they no longer offer FICO)...  Unless of course this new VS model can be fully implemented, which I doubt in the highest.

Message 1 of 11
10 REPLIES 10
llecs
Moderator Emeritus

Re: FICO vs. VantageScore

Interesting stuff. As clarification and AFAIK, TU and EX never ever offered FICO scores on their website....at least not since I started studying this 3-4 yrs ago. EQ had some sort of exclusive partnership with FICO and offered FICO scores (hence maybe you couldn't find FICO scores on EX and TU), but there have been recent changes with that, though you still can get an EQ FICO from Equifax.com (tough to find). EX and TU always offered other marketing-type scores (PLUS, Vantage, TransRisk, etc.). In fact, you can't even get your Vantage score from Equifax.com and VS has only been marketed for the past 3 yrs after being developed in 2006.

 

It's no secret that they developed VS and are doing anything and everything they can to compete with FICO. I'm been on these forums for a while and have yet to find one single instance or example of a lender pulling VantageScore. I know there are some out there. I'll listen to FICO's webinars from time to time and heard of a forum of lenders and one used Vantage only because Vantage excluded AUs and that lender had been burned due to piggybacking. Will consumer access go away? I don't think so. Lenders are more than open (and I think required now) to disclose your credit score when you apply. We also see examples of lenders like PSECU or DCU (?sp) offering free FICO scores on a monthly or regular basis as a benefit to membership. I think you'll see more of these partnerships w/ FICO develop (Or at least I hop FICO is taking steps towards that). Though I do foresee a day that we can only get our FICO scores from a lender.

 

 

Message 2 of 11
MattH
Senior Contributor

Re: FICO vs. VantageScore

See here:

 

http://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Understanding-FICO-Scoring/Formula-for-converting-the-Vantange-score...

 

 

TU 791 02/11/2013, EQ 800 1/29/2011 , EX Plus FAKO 812, EX Vantage Score 955 3/19/2010 wife's EQ 9/23/2009 803
EX always was my highest when we could pull all three
Always remember: big print giveth, small print taketh away
If you dunno what tanstaafl means you must Google it
Message 3 of 11
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO vs. VantageScore

FICO and Vantage just don't equate to each other as simply as indicated in the post Matt linked to.  Simple equations don't factor in the differences in the algorithms.

 

FICO uses a different algorithm or set of algorithms than Vantage. They are complex little beasties. As John Ulzheimer, who has worked with both Fair Isaac and Equifax puts it, rockets scientists have nothing on the guys that put your credit scores together.

Unfortunately, it's not like translating celsius to fahrenheit. Vantage varies from FICO in it's very first "step" - Vantage first groups consumers into one of 12 homogeneous segments and then calculates the consumer’s VantageScore within the segment . FICO's scoring "buckets" and all the intricacies within the "buckets" are different. That is why your Vantage score can go down, while your FICO score goes up - and vice versa.

The most predictable way of determining your FICO score is to pull it, or check it out when a creditor pulls it for you.

Message 4 of 11
RobertEG
Legendary Contributor

Re: FICO vs. VantageScore

The ability of Fair Isaac to keep the workings of its scoring algorithms as a proprietary trade secret is at the heart of U.S. intellectual property law, and wont change.

When someone invents a product, process, or method of doing business, they have two basic options to protect it in the marketplace.  They can get a patent, or they can choose to protect it as a trade secret. 

 

A patent has advantages and disadvantages.  To obtain a patent, the inventor must provide a full written dsclosure of how the invntion is both made and used in sufficient detail for anyone to make and use it themselves.  When the application is filed, this disclosure is made public 18-months after filing.    In exchange for this public disclosure, the patentee is giving exclusive rights to exclude all others from making, using, or selling the patented invention for a non-renewable period of 20-years from date of filing of the application for patent.  After that, all exclusive rights are gone, and the invention is in the public domain for anyone to make, use, or sell.

 

A trade secret has separate advantages and disadvantages.  Trade secrets convey no exclusive rights, so are only beneficial if the invention can be kept secret, and also is of a nature that does not permit it to readily be reverse-engineered.  If someone figures  it out on their own, they are free to make, use and sell it.

Trade secrets have no date of expiration, so can far outlive a patent grant.

 

Fair Isaac has chosen the trade-secret route.  They are banking on being able to keep their algorithms secret and that they wont be reverse-engineered.

It is not surprising that, in order to protect their business product from copying, they are very tight lipped on the precise workings of its algorithms.  To expect Congress to require any detailed disclosure of its workings would be totally contrary to 250-years of U.S. intellectual property law.

Message 5 of 11
MattH
Senior Contributor

Re: FICO vs. VantageScore

 


@RobertEG wrote:

The ability of Fair Isaac to keep the workings of its scoring algorithms as a proprietary trade secret is at the heart of U.S. intellectual property law, and wont change.

When someone invents a product, process, or method of doing business, they have two basic options to protect it in the marketplace.  They can get a patent, or they can choose to protect it as a trade secret. 

 

A patent has advantages and disadvantages.  To obtain a patent, the inventor must provide a full written dsclosure of how the invntion is both made and used in sufficient detail for anyone to make and use it themselves.  When the application is filed, this disclosure is made public 18-months after filing.    In exchange for this public disclosure, the patentee is giving exclusive rights to exclude all others from making, using, or selling the patented invention for a non-renewable period of 20-years from date of filing of the application for patent.  After that, all exclusive rights are gone, and the invention is in the public domain for anyone to make, use, or sell.

 

A trade secret has separate advantages and disadvantages.  Trade secrets convey no exclusive rights, so are only beneficial if the invention can be kept secret, and also is of a nature that does not permit it to readily be reverse-engineered.  If someone figures  it out on their own, they are free to make, use and sell it.

Trade secrets have no date of expiration, so can far outlive a patent grant.

 

Fair Isaac has chosen the trade-secret route.  They are banking on being able to keep their algorithms secret and that they wont be reverse-engineered.

It is not surprising that, in order to protect their business product from copying, they are very tight lipped on the precise workings of its algorithms.  To expect Congress to require any detailed disclosure of its workings would be totally contrary to 250-years of U.S. intellectual property law.


 

Exactly so.  What many people don't realize about patents is they are fundamentally rewards for disclosing inventions; they exist mainly because many inventions from Ancient and Early Modern times were forgotten because the inventor kept them secret.  As a pharmaceutical researcher, I work in a world where patents are of enormous importance: it is nearly impossible to keep the chemical composition of a drug secret, especially since regulators won't approve any drug for sale without a full details about what it contains, so patents are the only way to protect new drug discoveries, and without some kind of intellectual property protection companies like mine couldn't spend the billions of dollars we spend on clinical trials.

 

As for what BeamMeUp said about comparing FICO and Vantage scores, it is indeed true that because they are different scoring algorithms neither can be calculated very accurately from the other.  However, since both are intended to predict the same real-world event (a person having trouble paying bills) among the same population (US consumers), there must be a strong positive correlation between them if both are valid predictors.  A person who is at, say, the 75th percential of the population with one scoring model might not be exactly at the 75th percentile in the other model, maybe they are at the 70th percential or the 80th percentile with the other model, but unless that person happens to be in some manner highly unusual statistically speaking it is not likely somebody who is at the 75th percentile in one model would be at the 50th percentile in the other model.  It is rather like different college instructors assigning grades in a course with multiple sections (once upon a time I was one of those instructors, so I know how hard it is for a group of instructors to make the grading as fair as possible, and I took part in many discussions of grading standards among the instructors because we truly wanted to be as fair as we could): a student who gets a B from one instructor might have been given a B-plus or a B-minus by another instructor, but it is highly unlikely that student would have been given an A-plus or a C-minus by any of the instructors.

 

TU 791 02/11/2013, EQ 800 1/29/2011 , EX Plus FAKO 812, EX Vantage Score 955 3/19/2010 wife's EQ 9/23/2009 803
EX always was my highest when we could pull all three
Always remember: big print giveth, small print taketh away
If you dunno what tanstaafl means you must Google it
Message 6 of 11
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO vs. VantageScore

Hi,

  I just got the run around from TransUnion wrt getting Vantage scores and not FICO scores.

So, does anyone know how to translate a Vantage score toward qualifying for a bank loan?

 

Where can I get a FICO score?  Will it cost me?

 


WRL

Message 7 of 11
llecs
Moderator Emeritus

Re: FICO vs. VantageScore


@Anonymous wrote:

Hi,

  I just got the run around from TransUnion wrt getting Vantage scores and not FICO scores.

So, does anyone know how to translate a Vantage score toward qualifying for a bank loan?

 

Where can I get a FICO score?  Will it cost me?

 


WRL


You can get your TU FICO from here. In fact, other than from a lender, myFICO is the only place you can get your TU FICO score. Now YMMV based on the version of FICO score your bank would use, and it also depends what you are applying for, but most use some sort of FICO flavor.

 

Vantage scores stuff FICO does not and vice versa. Also, Vantage's scores range from 501-990 whereas FICO goes from 300-850. There's no way to correlate. In fact, logic dictates that your Vantage would be higher. Mine is lower by 50+ points at times. It used to be higher.

 

 

Message 8 of 11
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: FICO vs. VantageScore

There is no Roseta Stone available to help you "translate" fromVantage to FICO/  They are two entirely different scoring schemes.

Message 9 of 11
marty56
Super Contributor

Re: FICO vs. VantageScore


@Anonymous wrote:

There is no Roseta Stone available to help you "translate" fromVantage to FICO/  They are two entirely different scoring schemes.


Vantage Score + $15 $20 here = FICO (TU,EQ) 100% accurate.

 

1/25/2021: FICO 850 EQ 848 TU 847 EX
Message 10 of 11
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