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We are misjudging institutional risk parameters!

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gen-specific
Frequent Contributor

We are misjudging institutional risk parameters!

We have misjudged how credit worthiness is weighted. For instance, we talk about FICO variables, but I think we are collectively underestimating other variables. For instance, institutional willingness to match a different institution's credit line has almost nothing to do with FICO. Literally, FICO scores are an afterthought in this regard.

 

We all KNOW that there are 50 risk models, but we don't know anything about them. We assume they are related to FICO, or something that Experian, Transunion or Equifax sells, but the reality is that we don't know!

 

VISA, Mastercard, every financial institution, AND EVERY UNDERWRITER - human or machine - can be touting their own risk model in their decision to give you credit or not.

 

discuss

Message 1 of 13
12 REPLIES 12
NRB525
Super Contributor

Re: We are misjudging institutional risk parameters!

We in the Western cultures have a tendency to want to measure everything. If we can get to one number to describe something, it is easier to talk about.

Having a scoring model that gets to one number makes it easier for corporate managers to say "I used the scoring model consistently" and to make it easier for risk managers to bucketize all the applicants and make faster decisions at lower decision cost.

 

There may be ~50 different scoring models, but they don't deal with 50 different variables. There is only missed payments, number of months of payments, amounts available on free credit, amount already borrowed and owed, measures of income history, assets available such as real estate, and a few others. Within each of those variables, of course, the individual's experience and volume of examples vary, but the available types of information are limited. Even the types of information that can be measured is limited. Only actual transactions can be measured. Intentions cannot be measured.

 

The experience of new borrowers getting limited credit lines until a payment history with that lender is built, then the credit offering may expand, leading to the FICO or other scoring seeing more credit being granted, becomes a snowball of growth in credit. That means lenders are making decisions on the fly, with actual payment experience and less input from the outside world, other lenders, except in periodic checks with SP of CRA information. The big factor in ongoing lending risk management has to be the actual experience of the individual borrower, in that account, because the relevance and availability of specific information is so large compared to the CRA report.

 

The larger lenders are running the business as a risk-probability system rather than measuring and mitigating each person as an individual risk. The lenders know that some unforseen circumstances will cause a certain percentage of their borrowers to not be able to pay back what is owed. Once someone fails in the payback steps, then their perceived risk goes up, FICO and other scores go down, available credit is reduced, until a new build up of payment patterns results in perhaps new credit being granted.

 

There is a certain amount of herd mentality when someone is getting credit offers from multiple lenders. The lenders also need to have internal risk models once someone actually starts drawing on those credit lines, to monitor payment patterns and make adjustments including CLI, CLD, and direct contact with the borrower to respond to risk-flagging behavior of all kinds. Financial Review anyone?

 

There is no specific weighting of the risk models. They have tendencies, but each borrower - lender interaction has it's own nuances so there cannot be a cookie-cutter approach.

 

That is why YMMV.

High Bal Jan 2009 $116k on $146k limits 80% Util.
Oct 2014 $46k on $127k 36% util EQ 722 TU 727 EX 727
April 2018 $18k on $344k 5% util EQ 806 TU 810 EX 812
Jan 2019 $7.6k on $360k EQ 832 TU 839 EX 831
March 2021 $33k on $312k EQ 796 TU 798 EX 801
May 2021 Paid all Installments and Mortgages, one new Mortgage EQ 761 TY 774 EX 777
April 2022 EQ=811 TU=807 EX=805 - TU VS 3.0 765
Message 2 of 13
gen-specific
Frequent Contributor

Re: We are misjudging institutional risk parameters!

 


@NRB525 wrote:

 

 


Thanks, sure.

 

I think it is interesting how I can open a $500 installment loan on the minimum deposit of $500, solely to manipulate my FICO scores higher, and then a few months later apply for and get approved for a $30,000 credit card... and that was the counteroffer.

 

In this case, the counteroffer was based on other institutions granting me the exact same amount, but not matching my highest limit. (Although it is worth noting that many credit products are not offered with drastically higher limits than these.)

 

Maybe it isn't common for people to have this level of insight into an underwriter's decisions.

Message 3 of 13
NRB525
Super Contributor

Re: We are misjudging institutional risk parameters!

That's the thing about using numbers to measure things like creditworthiness: People learn how to manipulate those numbers.

 

The card companies go on the presumption that the average person isn't going to try to manipulate the system, the vast majority of people are just trying to get some credit to buy. Some shouldn't be trying, due to lack of resources, but that is where the refinement and changes in the scoring is done.

 

"What gets measured gets done" and the corollary: What can be measured can be manipulated.

High Bal Jan 2009 $116k on $146k limits 80% Util.
Oct 2014 $46k on $127k 36% util EQ 722 TU 727 EX 727
April 2018 $18k on $344k 5% util EQ 806 TU 810 EX 812
Jan 2019 $7.6k on $360k EQ 832 TU 839 EX 831
March 2021 $33k on $312k EQ 796 TU 798 EX 801
May 2021 Paid all Installments and Mortgages, one new Mortgage EQ 761 TY 774 EX 777
April 2022 EQ=811 TU=807 EX=805 - TU VS 3.0 765
Message 4 of 13
gen-specific
Frequent Contributor

Re: We are misjudging institutional risk parameters!


@NRB525 wrote:

"What gets measured gets done" and the corollary: What can be measured can be manipulated.


Quote of the day, thanks!

Message 5 of 13
RobertEG
Legendary Contributor

Re: We are misjudging institutional risk parameters!

FICO is not intended to be a measure of "creditworthiness."

It is only intended to represent the risk of becoming delinquent within the next couple of years.

It does not, for example, take into account clear creditworthiness factors, such as income, total assets, or total indebetness.

 

FICO is goof for what it is, but when viewed for what it isn't, then I agree that it does not adequately measure creditworthiness.

 

I would rather live in a credit socieity that has a widespread, general, and simple tool for evaluation of risk of repayment that to do without.

Creditors can make cheaper and quiicker decisions by choosing to look only at that one area of consumer risk.

Centralized credit reporting and a simple risk model makes that possible.

Countries that dont have such a developed system suffer subjective credit determinations and horrid interest rates.

 

Message 6 of 13
NRB525
Super Contributor

Re: We are misjudging institutional risk parameters!


@RobertEG wrote:

FICO is not intended to be a measure of "creditworthiness."

It is only intended to represent the risk of becoming delinquent within the next couple of years.

It does not, for example, take into account clear creditworthiness factors, such as income, total assets, or total indebetness.

 

FICO is goof for what it is, but when viewed for what it isn't, then I agree that it does not adequately measure creditworthiness.

 

I would rather live in a credit socieity that has a widespread, general, and simple tool for evaluation of risk of repayment that to do without.

Creditors can make cheaper and quiicker decisions by choosing to look only at that one area of consumer risk.

Centralized credit reporting and a simple risk model makes that possible.

Countries that dont have such a developed system suffer subjective credit determinations and horrid interest rates.

 


+1 to that.

High Bal Jan 2009 $116k on $146k limits 80% Util.
Oct 2014 $46k on $127k 36% util EQ 722 TU 727 EX 727
April 2018 $18k on $344k 5% util EQ 806 TU 810 EX 812
Jan 2019 $7.6k on $360k EQ 832 TU 839 EX 831
March 2021 $33k on $312k EQ 796 TU 798 EX 801
May 2021 Paid all Installments and Mortgages, one new Mortgage EQ 761 TY 774 EX 777
April 2022 EQ=811 TU=807 EX=805 - TU VS 3.0 765
Message 7 of 13
jamie123
Valued Contributor

Re: We are misjudging institutional risk parameters!


@RobertEG wrote:

FICO is not intended to be a measure of "creditworthiness."

It is only intended to represent the risk of becoming delinquent within the next couple of years.

It does not, for example, take into account clear creditworthiness factors, such as income, total assets, or total indebetness.

 

FICO is goof for what it is, but when viewed for what it isn't, then I agree that it does not adequately measure creditworthiness.

 

I would rather live in a credit socieity that has a widespread, general, and simple tool for evaluation of risk of repayment that to do without.

Creditors can make cheaper and quiicker decisions by choosing to look only at that one area of consumer risk.

Centralized credit reporting and a simple risk model makes that possible.

Countries that dont have such a developed system suffer subjective credit determinations and horrid interest rates.

 


The lender's decisions on whether to grant new credit are based on SCORES and HISTORY. If it were just scores alone many more people would be trying to manipulate their scores. You could have good scores of say 720 but just try getting an auto loan at the best rates without having some type of installment loan history on your reports. You will have a tough time.

 

The reason that assets aren't taken into account with FICO scoring, is because it  is considered a form of discrimination. You would have "redlining" around every apartment building because people that live there don't own real estate.

 

On large purchases like mortgages, assets are taken into account but not formally. If you are applying for a 200K mortgage and have 100K in investments you will have a much easier time retaining a mortgage than someone without the 100K in investments but the same scores that you do. But nothing is scored. It is just part of the lending decision.

 

When it comes to credit cards, scores are king. If you have high scores you can get whatever you want. Low scores have a tough time. They won't care if you have 100K in investments.


Starting Score: EQ 653 6/21/12
Current Score: EQ 817 3/10/20 - EX 820 3/13/20 - TU 825 3/03/20
Message 8 of 13
HiLine
Blogger

Re: We are misjudging institutional risk parameters!

What is really happening is people's misunderstanding of the purpose of credit scores.

 

Credit score does not really estimate creditworthiness like most people would think. What is represents is credit management habits, regardless of income level. I will give you an example of what credit score predicts and one example of what it does not.

 

Say A earns 100k a year, and so does another individual named B. Each of them has 2 credit cards and 1 auto loan.

A always pays credit card bills and installment amounts on time. B, however, keeps missing these payments. Why is that?

Most likely, B lives beyond his means, does not take into account his debt obligations in his budget, and runs out of money all the time, making him unable to make timely payments. He has to open new credit cards and loans to pay his older debt. A, on the other hand, is frugal, does not overspend, and has enough money left over every month to make the payments because he plans the debt in his budget. 2 years down the road, the debt B has accumulated is so large that his monthly interests are larger than what he has left over after his other expenses, so he refuses to make payments altogether; he is in default.

 

Credit score is supposed to predict situations like A's vs B's, regardless of their income: they make the same, but one ends up in default, and the other does not, and this is because B has much better debt management habits.

 

Now let's say we have 2 other individuals: C and D. Each of them has a credit card with a $20k limit. C makes $30k per year and lives in Manhattan, while D makes $100k and lives in Kansas City. Their credit profiles are identical. C puts most of his expenses one his credit card and makes the minimum payment every month. D puts his expenses on his credit card as well, but always pays off the full balance. In 2 years, C's credit card debt has grown to 10k, at which point C realizes he can never pay off the balance and files for bankruptcy. His credit score is stellar, and yet he is in default.

 

Credit score is not supposed to predict situations like C's vs D's. They both have excellent credit and exhibit good debt management habits, but one ends up in default and the other does not. This is where other factors such as income, DTI, cost of living, etc. come into play.

 

When determining whether they should extend credit, a lender looks at the overall financial picture of the borrower including credit score, specific credit profile, income, cost of living, DTI, etc. Credit history is only one factor among many that determine creditworthiness. We need to stop saying that credit score determines creditworthiness. This is plain wrong.

Message 9 of 13
Lemmus
Established Contributor

Re: We are misjudging institutional risk parameters!

...most lenders use an "overlay" in addition to raw credit scores ...as the credit lines increase, so do the overlays ...this is true of virtually all lenders regardless of the credit product ...in addition to the baseline decision on whether to grant credit or not, there then comes the CL decision and the rate decision ...all based on individual lender overlays


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