Bustout & Experian - Yet another "victim" of Chase closures, and nearly lost my Amex cards same day

[Peazmom]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@coreysw12 wrote:

Sorry to hear this happened.

Question - what the heck is an Experian Bustout score?

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I'd really like to know this as well...

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https://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/General-Credit-Topics/Bust-Out-Score/td-p/5116259

[coreysw12]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@coreysw12 wrote:

Sorry to hear this happened.

Question - what the heck is an Experian Bustout score?

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It is a risk score experian provides to some of their issuers... 

https://www.experian.com/decision-analytics/bust-out-fraud-score.html

https://www.experian.com/assets/decision-analytics/product-sheets/bustout-score.pdf

Has to do with the risk that you'll bust out - or acquire a lot of credit, max the cards/lines out, and then disappear.  Typically done using synthetic (ie fake) identities creating synthetic good credit reports with the bureaus over a period of time. There are groups that perpetrate this... can be big money.  Synovus bank found this out the hard way recently - they lost a TON in personal credit lines.  They re-wrote their entire policy because of it.

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Interesting. So it's a "hidden score" that us mere mortals aren't allowed to see. I'm hoping my Bustout score is low - even though I've applied for some credit lately, I've got a few open accounts that date back to 2009

[coreysw12]

OP, just want to check and make sure I got your timeline correct.

You had your CSR for about 91 days, and then applied for a Freedom on 5/8, and then had your accounts shut down on 5/15. Is that right?

I'm asking because my timeline is really similar to yours... I app'd for both a CSP and FU on 5/10. Got approved for both. It's been 19 days now, and I'm still really nervous they'll shut me down... but so far, both cards are still working.

[FinStar]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@FinStar wrote:
When did you obtain or get approved for CSR? What were the reasons given when you spoke to AmEx regarding the closures?

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Yeah, see that was my mistake on the chase card.  It had been open 93 days.  I _SHOULD NOT_ have app'd for the CFU.  Like at all.  But I didn't want to miss the pre-qual black star offer on the chase site.  Shame on me.

Amex is a little funny regarding their NSPL cards, I've found.  They gave multiple reasons, one of which was that I was above the NSPL limit... Which was a wee bit of hogwash since it was about HALF of what I had been running through the card.  We've been cycling 30k through that card monthly, and it was at $15k.  So something triggered their system and caused the NSPL limit to drop down... AND lock my personal card at the same time. The other reasons they gave were the same as Chase... a few new accounts, and too many inquries (5 total in the last year on EX, TWO were amex and TWO were chase).

I was likely a little too aggressive at thickening my credit file in April.  Thankfully it only cost me the CSR. My business and I both *bank* at Chase, so their "Previous Unsatisfactory Business Relationship" freaks me out a bit. Others have reported checking account closures... so I'm making contingency plans.   This is why you should always have backups...  (and, in part, is *GOOD* reason for thickening my file last month... because I can shrug and pull a different card out of the wallet.  Hey guess what, Bonvoy... you just got upgraded to EDC...).

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Sometimes chasing stars can have unintended consequences    But, it could have been a lot worse, meaning your AmEx CCs also enduring the same fate without the option of reopening.   Were you able to obtain the CSR SUB at least?

And, while the Chase outcome was unfortunate, your DPs and sharing this experience can certainly help others as awareness/PSA.   Just take it as a lesson learned and move forward.

As far as the deposit side of things, that should be ok - you would have definitely known right away if your accounts had been closed.

[kdm31091]

Yet another thread that serves to reminds us all not to do two Chase apps close together, as in, you should probably wait 6+ months in between apps. Chase isn't shy to shut people down and really it seems that most are not having success getting reinstated lately.

The only thing I can suggest is to appear as "normal" as possible. The average consumer doesn't open a new card every 2-3 months, much less from the same bank. Spread out the apps and slow down on inquiries. The landscape has changed a lot from advice you may read from 3-4 years ago. Banks just don't like credit seeking behavior. Some people's profiles can withstand more, and some less, but the bottom line is that you don't want to be an "outlier" on an algorithim.

[AverageJoesCredit]

Sorry to hear @Anonymous . To me , the too many inquiries or accounts in past year isnt the reason. Ive got quite a few inqs this past year and im still standing , knock on wood. I assume both lenders have access to other data out there on us and possible it cameup on recent review. Check out your sps to see if Amex and Chase have been sp'ing you more than usual lately.

In a way it might be good for you to see what lender sticks with you. I wouldnt want to be with a lender who spooks on drop of a dime and Chase be like dat. Yeah i know factors go into this but still. Imo i wouldnt try to get back your Chase cards in 6 months. Whats to say it wont happen again even if they approve you again. Best of luck D going forward

[Anonymous]

@Dogbert.  Sorry your Chase cards got axed; hopefully in the near future you'll be able to reinstate your CSR.

[Anonymous]

I've been noticing the recent trend among some relatively new members to open multiple Amex accounts in a very short period of time.  Just because you might be allowed to do it, or a customer service representative told you it was ok, does not mean you should do it.  I fully expect that there will be a fair amount of adverse action taken soon.

[kdm31091]

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@Anonymous wrote:

I've been noticing the recent trend among some relatively new members to open multiple Amex accounts in a very short period of time.  Just because you might be allowed to do it, or a customer service representative told you it was ok, does not mean you should do it.  I fully expect that there will be a fair amount of adverse action taken soon.

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Amex is more lenient with approvals than say, Chase, US Bank, or BOA for many people, so we've definitely seen more Amex apps. But just like the others, eventually Amex will probably develop more restrictions on approvals than what they have now and/or shutting down people who did too much too fast.

[Remedios]

Thank you for sharing, it cant be easy.  Lets hope (again) it helps somebody else who may be contemplating similar actions. 

With that said, I have to go "there"...

That EX white paper has been around for over 10 years. That's nothing new.  

Lenders like Chase and Amex have their own internal fraud and abuse detection, they dont jump just because EX says so.  It's another product that EX peddles but internal algorithms used by lenders are probably derived from a similar concept 

Bust out fraud is not that easy to trigger. If it was, this forum would consist of a few people and tumbleweeds. Just because A and B happened on the same day, that's not enough to establish causality between the two. More than likely timing is a coincidence, but everything else a perfect storm. 

OP (sorry about the following @Anonymous ) opened a bunch of new accounts. Two of them were Chase revolving accounts, with second one triggering a closer look and (this is an important AND) three checking accounts with them.  CSR was initially denied, approved on recon with highest APR already  indicating a more risky customer. There was already a reluctance on the part of the lender, and that's where it should have stopped for a while. 

Bottom line, as far as Chase is concerned, you fell from the sky and asked for everything. Freedom app was ill advised all around, especially in the light of other new accounts. 

Amex...you had a card from a different lender that was way over the limit. They are very sensitive to utilization on ALL cards, not just theirs. If at the time your charges with them were higher than usual, another red flag. Throw those new accounts/inquiries in the mix, and their response becomes a bit more clear.  In such situation, certain lenders are really not likely to sit idly and wait to see what happens. At least you were able to salvage that relationship. I'd thread lightly around them for a while. 

Fast forward and now you're planning November apps. How about you dont?  I know to you four revolving accounts and three checking accounts don't seem like much, but it is a lot. It's a lot because general population does not behave like that. No algorithm goes " Oh it's okay, they must have MyFico log in and are trying to diversify". 

Before we start with " Some profiles can handle it"...sure, some can. Only one way to find out, right? 

So, I really do not think this is a case of "bust out", it looks more like someone on a verge of default. Excessive credit seeking is not just for the fraudsters. It's associated with higher likelihood of financial distress. 

During my recon with US Bank, I kinda got chided for two (2) accounts in 13 months. Not only that, but UW had EWS report available to him, also. That's the reason I mentioned opening multiple bank accounts. There is a separation between lending and depository end but they are not oblivious to each other's existence. 

Stop applying, age what you have. This type of AA is not limited to Chase and Amex.