I'm stunned ... and honestly insulted. AMEX apparently thinks I’m a SUB-churner.
I feel like I’m in an episode of Seinfeld (Mod cut, not here please @Aim_High regardless of pop culture references - be mindful of the TOS and inappropriate references) except it’s the SUB:
“NO SUB FOR YOU!”
While I love a good SUB offering like anyone, I always try to look carefully beyond it to see how the card fits into my overall lineup and long-term plans. Most of my over three decades of credit, I've applied very sparingly for new cards. About four years ago, I did a minor housecleaning of cards and closed several retail cards where I had taken advantage of special financing on furniture and appliances related to a move to a new home. I decided to close a few cards once balances were paid, but they were all open for two or more years. At that point, I was slimming down my cards considerably. Then, three years ago, I started a focused shift to a combination of travel cards and better cash-back rewards cards, so I've been more active with adding new cards since then than at any point in my life. However, it's been far below the activity of many others on My Fico. My most active year was 2019 where I added 8 new accounts, including one AU. My FICO scores, income, and lifestyle had changed and I was overdue for a credit refresh.
I've been considering the timing of some new card applications and watching for the better SUB opportunities, but as I said, the SUBs are not the only reason I seek any cards. They are just one consideration. However, I saw a great offer on the American Express Hilton Surpass card (for up to 200K Hilton Honors points for $10K spend in the first six months) and it seemed too good to pass up. I've been in the garden for over 8 1/2 months and decided this was the time to try to add another few new cards.
Started my application and then I got this screen:
"... based on your history with credit card balance transfers, American Express welcome offers, introductory APR offers, or the number of cards you have opened or closed, you are not eligible to receive the welcome offer. We have not performed a credit check. Would you still like to proceed?"
I've opened no cards at all in almost nine months. I've opened only three cards in the past 12 months, including one AMEX (my Gold.) That card is still open and in regular use. Ironically, my file was “good enough” for AMEX to approve my Gold card WITH the 75K MR point SUB as my last new card, but somehow since then, they think I’ve been seeking too many special offers, even though nothing has changed on my file except that I’ve added more time since I either opened or closed any cards. I got the Gold card for the long-haul and had planned to keep it. That is the ONLY AMEX SUB I have EVER received in my entire life. I’ve NEVER gotten an AMEX SUB and later closed that card, and that’s what I thought usually generated such a response from AMEX. I've had a few other AMEX cards from many years ago but it was before SUBs became so commonplace. My last AMEX card before the Gold was my AMEX/Costco card. Yes, it was closed (June 2016) but not due to my choice; Costco changed card vender from AMEX to Citi.
There was ONE card I applied for, opened and immediately closed in the past two years. I applied for a second Discover card (IT Miles) but the SL was so low on it ($1K) that it wasn’t useful to me and I decided to close it immediately instead of trying to grow it. I never claimed a SUB or spent a nickel on it. Instead, DW added me as AU when she applied (and got a higher limit.)
For other card closures besides the AMEX Costco and the retail card closures from four years ago, I’ve had a few cards report closed in last couple of years due to low/no usage but they had been open for a long time. One of them was my PayPal credit. After Synchrony took it over in 2018, they started reporting it to CRBs and later closed it for non-use. Thanks, Synch. I would have closed it years ago since I never used it but PayPal never reported and it was easy to forget. The other was my Target Redcard.
New Personal cards showing on personal credit report:
0/6; 3/12; 10/24; 13/36; 13/48; 13/60
Closed accounts:
0/6; 0/12; 2/24; 3/36; 8/48; 9/60
Closed accounts where I initiated closure:
0/6; 0/12; 1/24; 1/36; 6/48; 6/60
*See lists at bottom of opened and closed cards.
I called AMEX customer service to vent and question the denial. The rep listened and opened a case to follow up, but I don’t really expect any relief from their SUB denial. Since they approved my Gold card with SUB but then denied the Hilton SUB, it appears to me that either they are cracking down on SUB-chasing or that one card pushed me over the edge with them. I’m also wondering how far back they are looking at cards being opened and/or closed when they make these decisions, and if my rash of closures of the store cards from four years ago is factoring into the equation. While none of us like policies like 5/24 (Chase) or 3/12 (BofA) or 1/12 (USB), at least those are somewhat predictable and standardized. AMEX just seems more random to me. It also appears to me that the system is arbitrarily looking at opened and/or closed accounts with no consideration of circumstances. For someone like myself who is just trying to realign my cards with my needs, it seems unnecessarily punitive.
I hesitated reopening a relationship with AMEX before I decided on the Gold card. I wasn’t sure if MRs were right for me or how AMEX cards would fit into my lineup. I thought I had resolved that, but if they think I’m going to add more AF-cards but forgo the SUBs on them, they are nuts. This situation definitely has me questioning it all again. Rant over. For those who are still with me, thanks for reading my diatribe. And I would appreciate any inputs or insights others have on AMEX’s SUB policies. If nothing else, I hope this provides some data points for the community on AMEX SUB expectations.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
2021 new cards:
NONE
2020 new cards:
08/2020: AMEX Gold
07/2020: Wells Fargo Cash Wise Visa
07/2020: Bank of America Premium Rewards Visa
04/2020: AOC FCU Signature Visa
2019 new cards:
11/2019: Navy FCU Platinum Visa
11/2019: PenFed FCU Power Cash Rewards Visa
11/2019: DISCOVER IT Miles (AU-DW)
11/2019: DISCOVER IT Miles*
*Closed within 30 days; no desire to grow low $1K SL
08/2019: GS Bank - Apple Mastercard
08/2019: Chase World of Hyatt
04/2019: Chase Marriott Bonvoy Boundless
01/2019: Chase Freedom
2018 new cards:
11/2018: Chase INK Business Preferred (now INK CASH)
*Not on personal credit report
05/2018: Chase Sapphire Reserve
2017 new cards:
NONE
2016 new cards:
NONE* (Citi Costco card transferred from AMEX but backdated to AMEX date.)
CLOSED Credit Card Accounts:
12/2019: Discover IT Miles (no SUB; closed within 30 days due low limit)
12/2019: Synchrony PayPal Credit; Closed due to inactivity (2010-2019)
02/2019: TD Bank/Target; Closed due to inactivity (2012-2019)
08/2017: JPMCB Chase Amazon Visa closed to consolidate CL; (2009-2017)
06/2016: American Express Costco closed after Costco change to Citi/Visa (1997-2016)
Additonal Retail/Store financing card closures that I initiated:
05/2017: Sears/CBNA (open 2011-2017)
05/2017: Kohls Capital One (open 2011-2017)
05/2017: Wells Fargo Dillards AMEX (open 2011-2017)
05/2017: Wells Fargo Bassett Furniture (open 2015-2017)
@Aim_High wrote:I'm stunned ... and honestly insulted. AMEX apparently thinks I’m a SUB-churner.
I feel like I’m in an episode of Seinfeld (Mod cut, not here please @Aim_High regardless of pop culture references - be mindful of the TOS and inappropriate references) except it’s the SUB:
“NO SUB FOR YOU!”
While I love a good SUB offering like anyone, I always try to look carefully beyond it to see how the card fits into my overall lineup and long-term plans. Most of my over three decades of credit, I've applied very sparingly for new cards. About four years ago, I did a minor housecleaning of cards and closed several retail cards where I had taken advantage of special financing on furniture and appliances related to a move to a new home. I decided to close a few cards once balances were paid, but they were all open for two or more years. At that point, I was slimming down my cards considerably. Then, three years ago, I started a focused shift to a combination of travel cards and better cash-back rewards cards, so I've been more active with adding new cards since then than at any point in my life. However, it's been far below the activity of many others on My Fico. My most active year was 2019 where I added 8 new accounts, including one AU. My FICO scores, income, and lifestyle had changed and I was overdue for a credit refresh.
I've been considering the timing of some new card applications and watching for the better SUB opportunities, but as I said, the SUBs are not the only reason I seek any cards. They are just one consideration. However, I saw a great offer on the American Express Hilton Surpass card (for up to 200K Hilton Honors points for $10K spend in the first six months) and it seemed too good to pass up. I've been in the garden for over 8 1/2 months and decided this was the time to try to add another few new cards.
Started my application and then I got this screen:
"... based on your history with credit card balance transfers, American Express welcome offers, introductory APR offers, or the number of cards you have opened or closed, you are not eligible to receive the welcome offer. We have not performed a credit check. Would you still like to proceed?"
I've opened no cards at all in almost nine months. I've opened only three cards in the past 12 months, including one AMEX (my Gold.) That card is still open and in regular use. Ironically, my file was “good enough” for AMEX to approve my Gold card WITH the 75K MR point SUB as my last new card, but somehow since then, they think I’ve been seeking too many special offers, even though nothing has changed on my file except that I’ve added more time since I either opened or closed any cards. I got the Gold card for the long-haul and had planned to keep it. That is the ONLY AMEX SUB I have EVER received in my entire life. I’ve NEVER gotten an AMEX SUB and later closed that card, and that’s what I thought usually generated such a response from AMEX. I've had a few other AMEX cards from many years ago but it was before SUBs became so commonplace. My last AMEX card before the Gold was my AMEX/Costco card. Yes, it was closed (June 2016) but not due to my choice; Costco changed card vender from AMEX to Citi.
There was ONE card I applied for, opened and immediately closed in the past two years. I applied for a second Discover card (IT Miles) but the SL was so low on it ($1K) that it wasn’t useful to me and I decided to close it immediately instead of trying to grow it. I never claimed a SUB or spent a nickel on it. Instead, DW added me as AU when she applied (and got a higher limit.)
For other card closures besides the AMEX Costco and the retail card closures from four years ago, I’ve had a few cards report closed in last couple of years due to low/no usage but they had been open for a long time. One of them was my PayPal credit. After Synchrony took it over in 2018, they started reporting it to CRBs and later closed it for non-use. Thanks, Synch. I would have closed it years ago since I never used it but PayPal never reported and it was easy to forget. The other was my Target Redcard.
New Personal cards showing on personal credit report:
0/6; 3/12; 10/24; 13/36; 13/48; 13/60
Closed accounts:
0/6; 0/12; 2/24; 3/36; 8/48; 9/60
Closed accounts where I initiated closure:
0/6; 0/12; 1/24; 1/36; 6/48; 6/60
I called AMEX customer service to vent and question the denial. The rep listened and opened a case to follow up, but I don’t really expect any relief from their SUB denial. Since they approved my Gold card with SUB but then denied the Hilton SUB, it appears to me that either they are cracking down on SUB-chasing or that one card pushed me over the edge with them. I’m also wondering how far back they are looking at cards being opened and/or closed when they make these decisions, and if my rash of closures of the store cards from four years ago is factoring into the equation. While none of us like policies like 5/24 (Chase) or 3/12 (BofA) or 1/12 (USB), at least those are somewhat predictable and standardized. AMEX just seems more random to me. It also appears to me that the system is arbitrarily looking at opened and/or closed accounts with no consideration of circumstances. For someone like myself who is just trying to realign my cards with my needs, it seems unnecessarily punitive.
I hesitated reopening a relationship with AMEX before I decided on the Gold card. I wasn’t sure if MRs were right for me or how AMEX cards would fit into my lineup. I thought I had resolved that, but if they think I’m going to add more AF-cards but forgo the SUBs on them, they are nuts. This situation definitely has me questioning it all again. Rant over. For those who are still with me, thanks for reading my diatribe. And I would appreciate any inputs or insights others have on AMEX’s SUB policies. If nothing else, I hope this provides some data points for the community on AMEX SUB expectations.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
2021 new cards:
NONE
2020 new cards:
08/2020: AMEX Gold
07/2020: Wells Fargo Cash Wise Visa
07/2020: Bank of America Premium Rewards Visa
04/2020: AOC FCU Signature Visa
2019 new cards:
11/2019: Navy FCU Platinum Visa
11/2019: PenFed FCU Power Cash Rewards Visa
11/2019: DISCOVER IT Miles (AU-DW)
11/2019: DISCOVER IT Miles*
*Closed within 30 days; no desire to grow low $1K SL
08/2019: GS Bank - Apple Mastercard
08/2019: Chase World of Hyatt
04/2019: Chase Marriott Bonvoy Boundless
01/2019: Chase Freedom
CLOSED Credit Card Accounts:
12/2019: Discover IT Miles (no SUB; closed within 30 days due low limit)
12/2019: Synchrony PayPal Credit; Closed due to inactivity (2010-2019)
02/2019: TD Bank/Target; Closed due to inactivity (2012-2019)
08/2017: JPMCB Chase Amazon Visa closed to consolidate CL; (2009-2017)
06/2016: American Express Costco closed after Costco change to Citi/Visa (1997-2016)
While the disappointment may be what's hard to come to grips with, you really shouldn't take it to the level of being personal or insulting. It's simply an internal algorithm.
Tons of threads on Reddit, FlyerTalk, etc., point out these ineligibility factors. For the most part, time seems to be a component that provides some success at some point. And, it's been reported that AmEx can look back as far as ~2 years on any type of 'outside' activity they deem a disqualifier for the SUB on some of their products - personal or business. So, it can be adding several revolving tradelines or closing them (AmEx doesn't specify how many), for instance.
@FinStar wrote:While the disappointment may be what's hard to come to grips with, you really shouldn't take it to the level of being personal or insulting. It's simply an internal algorithm.
Tons of threads on Reddit, FlyerTalk, etc., point out these ineligibility factors. For the most part, time seems to be a component that provides some success at some point. And, it's been reported that AmEx can look back as far as ~2 years on any type of 'outside' activity they deem a disqualifier for the SUB on some of their products - personal or business. So, it can be adding several revolving tradelines or closing them (AmEx doesn't specify how many), for instance.
Thanks for the reply, @FinStar, but I was hoping for some enlightenment on the logic (or lack of it?) behind the algorithm. My issue isn't that AMEX has an algorithm to screen out SUB churning. My issue is that the algorithm appears flawed and that it identifies relatively normal, routine, and legitimate changes to a credit file as problematic. If the algorithm made sense, why would it approve me for the Gold SUB last August and then deny me the Hilton SUB when nothing has changed except for the better? It seems completely inconsistent, and I was hoping someone might have some insight into that aspect, as it makes no sense at all to me.
If the look-back is up to two years, the issue appears more related to the new accounts opened unless they are penalizing me for closing that single Discover account along with the Synch/PayPal Credit closure. If so, that seems overly harsh.
Apologies if the Seinfeld reference was offensive but I though the mere mention of the word in conjunction with the pop culture framework didn't cross a line.
@W261w261 wrote:Always good to hear of experiences, thank you, although most of what I was thinking, was "Wow! How long did it take him to write that?"
I know, right, @W261w261? It was in a couple of sittings. I type fast but also known for my longer posts. Part of me putting that together was simply due to the surprise about the denial and trying to wrap my head around what they were considering. The list of card openings is something I imported from a Word file that lists my cards. I wanted to share it with the community so that others might learn from the data points but also for me to gain a better understanding from our members about where I had crossed the line with them. It appeared it wasn't anything to do with my AMEX cards. I don't frequent those other forums that Finstar referenced and I didn't recall seeing anything similar to this posted on My FICO, at least not lately. I thought it might be a good discussion topic.