Are they any cards on the AmEx Network not issued by AmEx that are treated as Platinum cards....

[wasCB14]

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@Anonymous wrote:

Short answer is no, because you need to be paying THEM the annual fee in order to have access to THEIR lounge. For example, Navy Fed More Rewards has a $0 annual fee. They're not making anything off of your AF, and nothing off interest. Only merchant fees on those cards. 

The way I look at it, if you don't even get C-Lounge access with a Green/Gold at $150-$250, you sure won't get it paying less. 

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Green and Gold are really more about rewards and credits than comfort perks. It's hard to say what Amex would want to charge on a hypothetical "pure lounge access" card without all the credits and 5x on "booking direct" airfare.

Not that such a product is likely. CLs were pretty crowded before COVID. There were vague whispers about limiting the number of visits per customer per year.

[Anonymous]

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@wasCB14 wrote:

Quite the optimist, eh?

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2031 is me being an optimist! :-)

[Anonymous]

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@Anonymous wrote:

Short answer is no, because you need to be paying THEM the annual fee in order to have access to THEIR lounge. For example, Navy Fed More Rewards has a $0 annual fee. They're not making anything off of your AF, and nothing off interest. Only merchant fees on those cards. 

Nope. Someone needs to be paying them. There is absolutely no reason that any other bank could not issue Platinum cards with AmEx charging them what they want for the privilege. There is also no reason that these other financial institutions need to pass that cost on to the end user (although AmEx could mandate it to maintain the brand). If NFCU offered it to people with over $1 million managed by them and did not charge a fee, that might be fine for AmEx.

The way I look at it, if you don't even get C-Lounge access with a Green/Gold at $150-$250, you sure won't get it paying less

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When they opened, Green and Gold card holders could pay for a lounge day pass. At that point one could go to the lounges whether one had an arriving or departing ticket, with no time window.

[wasCB14]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@wasCB14 wrote:

Quite the optimist, eh?

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2031 is me being an optimist! :-)

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I expect travel will pick up well before then regardless, but COVID could certainly be around a long time. The 1917 flu was still circulating in some parts of the world well into the 1950's.

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

Short answer is no, because you need to be paying THEM the annual fee in order to have access to THEIR lounge. For example, Navy Fed More Rewards has a $0 annual fee. They're not making anything off of your AF, and nothing off interest. Only merchant fees on those cards. 

Nope. Someone needs to be paying them. There is absolutely no reason that any other bank could not issue Platinum cards with AmEx charging them what they want for the privilege. There is also no reason that these other financial institutions need to pass that cost on to the end user (although AmEx could mandate it to maintain the brand). If NFCU offered it to people with over $1 million managed by them and did not charge a fee, that might be fine for AmEx.

The way I look at it, if you don't even get C-Lounge access with a Green/Gold at $150-$250, you sure won't get it paying less

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When they opened, Green and Gold card holders could pay for a lounge day pass. At that point one could go to the lounges whether one had an arriving or departing ticket, with no time window.

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I'm not sure what crowds were like in CLs just before March. My late 2019, early 2020 lounges were Delta and Escape.

But crowding had been a growing concern for a few years...and that was before they had a big ad campaign for Platinum in Los Angeles in advance of a CL going into LAX. And as you say, they now limit access to departures/stops only and don't sell day passes to their own customers with lower-tier cards. It's hard to imagine them licensing to a competitor what they won't sell to their own lower-tier-card customers at any price.

A lot of non-credit-enthusiasts use Platinum as a daily driver, either personally or for business. On $100k annual spend, it's quite possible that Amex gets $2,800 in merchant fees while the customer redeems the MRs for some Delta SkyMiles that likely cost Amex well under $1,000 at bulk discount rates. It's not normal behavior by MF standards, but a lot of people are too busy to micromanage and like Amex customer service. Those customers can be hugely profitable for Amex. It's one thing to take a risk on a potential low-spend perk user, but there's not really a case for adding a new group of customers guaranteed to generate very little in revenue.

If CL access is worth $1000/year to someone, that person would just apply for a Platinum. Licensing another issuer to give access would be like specifically seeking out customers they have lost huge sums on in the past...not very consistent with the "Amex never forgets" idea.

"Hello, Mrs. Profitable Customer. You're going to have to wait outside for a while. The guy ahead of you in line who stiffed us for $50k five years ago just took the last free spot."

[NRB525]

The Centurion Lounge Day Pass has been not available for at least a year prior to Coronavirus closures. It was one of the steps taken to reduce overcrowding. And to encourage applications for Platinum. 

The MR points, related transfer partner options, and perks of the AMEX charge cards ( and ED / EDP ) are a feature of the AMEX bank, not of the AMEX payment network.  Partners such as Schwab versions are still issued by AMEX bank, though Schwab adds the MR points redemption option and credits toward the AF based on portfolio size.  With the Schwab version I believe you'd still have to pass the blacklist hurdle. 

The entire concept of NPSL charge cards is not something other banks do. That is one of the features AMEX uses to both entice big spenders, as well as dynamically limit ( and Un-limit ) cardholders based on risk monitoring in the bank's data about a consumer or corporate card user.  

[wasCB14]

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@NRB525 wrote:

The Centurion Lounge Day Pass has been not available for at least a year prior to Coronavirus closures. It was one of the steps taken to reduce overcrowding. And to encourage applications for Platinum. 

The MR points, related transfer partner options, and perks of the AMEX charge cards ( and ED / EDP ) are a feature of the AMEX bank, not of the AMEX payment network.  Partners such as Schwab versions are still issued by AMEX bank, though Schwab adds the MR points redemption option and credits toward the AF based on portfolio size.  With the Schwab version I believe you'd still have to pass the blacklist hurdle. 

The entire concept of NPSL charge cards is not something other banks do. That is one of the features AMEX uses to both entice big spenders, as well as dynamically limit ( and Un-limit ) cardholders based on risk monitoring in the bank's data about a consumer or corporate card user.  

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From the FAQs: https://client.schwab.com/secure/cc/products/specialized_solutions/credit_cards

"Is American Express or Charles Schwab the issuer of these cards?

This Card is issued by American Express National Bank. Schwab and American Express National Bank, have partnered together to create the Schwab Investor Card® from American Express and the American Express Platinum Card® for Schwab, exclusively designed for Schwab investors like you.

Please note that Schwab is not involved with any credit decision, or in the approval process, for any applicant for the Card."

i.e. regular Amex underwriting. Not a way to circumvent the blacklist.

[NRB525]

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@wasCB14 wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@wasCB14 wrote:

Quite the optimist, eh?

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2031 is me being an optimist! :-)

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I expect travel will pick up well before then regardless, but COVID could certainly be around a long time. The 1917 flu was still circulating in some parts of the world well into the 1950's.

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

Short answer is no, because you need to be paying THEM the annual fee in order to have access to THEIR lounge. For example, Navy Fed More Rewards has a $0 annual fee. They're not making anything off of your AF, and nothing off interest. Only merchant fees on those cards. 

Nope. Someone needs to be paying them. There is absolutely no reason that any other bank could not issue Platinum cards with AmEx charging them what they want for the privilege. There is also no reason that these other financial institutions need to pass that cost on to the end user (although AmEx could mandate it to maintain the brand). If NFCU offered it to people with over $1 million managed by them and did not charge a fee, that might be fine for AmEx.

The way I look at it, if you don't even get C-Lounge access with a Green/Gold at $150-$250, you sure won't get it paying less

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When they opened, Green and Gold card holders could pay for a lounge day pass. At that point one could go to the lounges whether one had an arriving or departing ticket, with no time window.

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I'm not sure what crowds were like in CLs just before March. My late 2019, early 2020 lounges were Delta and Escape.

But crowding had been a growing concern for a few years...and that was before they had a big ad campaign for Platinum in Los Angeles in advance of a CL going into LAX. And as you say, they now limit access to departures/stops only and don't sell day passes to their own customers with lower-tier cards. It's hard to imagine them licensing to a competitor what they won't sell to their own lower-tier-card customers at any price.

A lot of non-credit-enthusiasts use Platinum as a daily driver, either personally or for business. On $100k annual spend, it's quite possible that Amex gets $2,800 in merchant fees while the customer redeems the MRs for some Delta SkyMiles that likely cost Amex well under $1,000 at bulk discount rates. It's not normal behavior by MF standards, but a lot of people are too busy to micromanage and like Amex customer service. Those customers can be hugely profitable for Amex. It's one thing to take a risk on a potential low-spend perk user, but there's not really a case for adding a new group of customers guaranteed to generate very little in revenue.

If CL access is worth $1000/year to someone, that person would just apply for a Platinum. Licensing another issuer to give access would be like specifically seeking out customers they have lost huge sums on in the past...not very consistent with the "Amex never forgets" idea.

"Hello, Mrs. Profitable Customer. You're going to have to wait outside for a while. The guy ahead of you in line who stiffed us for $50k five years ago just took the last free spot."

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...Which leads to the speculation about the Optio card as a method to fill the space above Platinum after Centurion card AF was doubled.  Provide yet another means to parse access to the Centurion Lounge, refine the exclusivity of AMEX charge cards. And in my opinion still keep the MR earning categories limited on that card. Perks improve, MR points not as important to this select list.  

And of course issued only by AMEX bank.  

[wasCB14]

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@NRB525 wrote:
...Which leads to the speculation about the Optio card as a method to fill the space above Platinum after Centurion card AF was doubled.  Provide yet another means to parse access to the Centurion Lounge, refine the exclusivity of AMEX charge cards. And in my opinion still keep the MR earning categories limited on that card. Perks improve, MR points not as important to this select list.  

And of course issued only by AMEX bank.  

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There's not an obvious solution. They could limit Platinum cards to a certain number of visits per year. Frequent travelers with healthy spend (but still shy of Centurion) could upgrade to Optio and keep unlimited access.

...but that may just raise fees and not really reduce crowding. If they were seriously considering taking it away from Platinum entirely I doubt they'd have ever extended access to Delta Reserve.

Then again, most of my visits have been to SFO. I think that and Vegas have had worse crowding than most other locations.

[Loquat]

I gave up on Centurion Lounges even before my wife ditched her Platinum card. Like most have mentioned, it was due to the crowding and their limited footprint.

There tend to be in elite heavy areas when lends to said crowdedness and I don't know how Amex plans to eliminate the problem. They've made them departure lounges and that hasn't helped all that much, the put a time limit and that hasn't helped that much either.

They keep making access to the lounges easier by adding the option to cards outside of the Platinum. One way that could reduce traffic, and it'll probably never happen, is to limit overall usage which would anger the Platinum card holders.

As one who prefers the Delta SkyClubs over Centurion lounges I would he happy if they cut the SkyClub access to Amex Platinum members and that'd help with the traffic in SkyClubs as well. SkyClubs are tolerable because they tend to be a lot bigger than Centurion lounges and obviously has a larger footprint.

[Anonymous]

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@wasCB14 wrote:

I expect travel will pick up well before then regardless, but COVID could certainly be around a long time. The 1917 flu was still circulating in some parts of the world well into the 1950's.

Talked to some friends reasonably high at United and they do not expect travel to return to 2019 levels before 2026 or 2027 (at the earliest, and could be as late as 2028 or 2029). There is a lot of business that they just expect is “gone”, in particular many trade shows just will not be able to weather two years of absence. Other travel like internal company meetings will be reduced for a long time by video conferencing. I am not really sure if it will be on the shorter side or the longer side. The airlines made a number of shortsighted changes to their frequent traveler programs based on the idea that travel would be strong for so long that encouraging loyalty no longer mattered. By eliminating benefits and making everything dollar based, they eliminated a lot of found revenue for them. They looked at "Mileage Runners" as free loaders, never realizing how much they gained from them. I know a lot of people who used to fly 60,000 miles a year for things they needed to do, but would book discretionary travel needed to reach 1K because they felt the occasional perks were worth it. It also meant that they would book every flight on United even much less convenient ones, to ensure they hit those numbers. United looked at the extra 40,000 low yield miles and decided they were not worth it. What they did not do was understand that once one took away the passengers loyalty, some of those high yield 60,000 miles would also go away. It was the same mistake they made with Ted - assuming that since many of the travelers in those markets were leisure travelers, it did not matter that they did not offer First Class (or as it used to be EconomyPlusPlus). Now they will want to loyalty back (and the capacity soaking mileage runs), but it will be hard to rebuild that for a long time.

I commented to friends at the time (including then retired president of Mileage Plus), that they were making a mistake and that they were not correctly accounting for that value, and about half of them agreed (also including the former Mileage Plus guy).

I'm not sure what crowds were like in CLs just before March. My late 2019, early 2020 lounges were Delta and Escape.

The last time I flew this year was 10 March LAX to ORD returning on 11 March. I went into the United Club before I left LAX and there were 7 people there. On my return, there were 10. Even the clubs in ORD were less than one quarter full.

But crowding had been a growing concern for a few years...and that was before they had a big ad campaign for Platinum in Los Angeles in advance of a CL going into LAX. And as you say, they now limit access to departures/stops only and don't sell day passes to their own customers with lower-tier cards. It's hard to imagine them licensing to a competitor what they won't sell to their own lower-tier-card customers at any price.

“Co-petitor” might be a better description of the card issued on their network that are not issued by them. However, just because they have not yet done it does not mean that they will not or that it would not make sense for them. In my memory, they neither had co-branded cards nor allowed anyone else to issue them. Others had done co-branded cards long before they did, and they were still saying they would never tarnish their brand that way, right up until they did.

There are many factors that would come into play, one of which would be maintaining the brand image. Remember, most people out side of places like this and FlyerTalk, have no understanding of or interest in any of this stuff and see every AmEx as an AmEx. As much as I understood about the rewards structure, I myself had to ask if the cards issued by Navy Fed and the like, had underwriting done by them or AmEx.

So while they might never grant a no-annual fee card Platinum status (to maintain the brand) no matter what they issuer paid them per user/use, they might let what another issuer offer Platinum benefits if the financials worked and the card was perceived as brand-enhancing. I would guess it would be big chunk of cash upfront and a fee for every visit to the Centurion lounge. They might even force them to pay for the construction and management of some Centurion lounges - just as it works for Star Alliance lounges.

A lot of non-credit-enthusiasts use Platinum as a daily driver, either personally or for business. On $100k annual spend, it's quite possible that Amex gets $2,800 in merchant fees while the customer redeems the MRs for some Delta SkyMiles that likely cost Amex well under $1,000 at bulk discount rates. It's not normal behavior by MF standards, but a lot of people are too busy to micromanage and like Amex customer service. Those customers can be hugely profitable for Amex. It's one thing to take a risk on a potential low-spend perk user, but there's not really a case for adding a new group of customers guaranteed to generate very little in revenue.

That is certainly one analysis. On the other hand, an issuing bank might very well decide that it was worth paying a lot to make it available for their top tier customers. AmEx has been slow to roll out these lounges having others on the hook for the bulk of the spend to build out new ones might speed things up and decrease over crowding. There is one lounge in SFO, why not have one in each terminal - each of the others paid for by one of their other issuers. Again, I am not arguing they will do this, just that there are many different ways they could make this work.

If CL access is worth $1000/year to someone, that person would just apply for a Platinum. Licensing another issuer to give access would be like specifically seeking out customers they have lost huge sums on in the past...not very consistent with the "Amex never forgets" idea.

Your perspective is too narrow here. Being blacklisted by AmEx is only one reason someone might want to have a high tier card issued by someone else, and accessing the lounge is only one of the benefits Platinum status offers. High net worth individuals often do not spend energy worrying about these kind of things. If someone has a great deal of money invested with an issuing bank, that bank might want to ensure they remain in the family.

"Hello, Mrs. Profitable Customer. You're going to have to wait outside for a while. The guy ahead of you in line who stiffed us for $50k five years ago just took the last free spot."

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Or: “Hello, Mr. Point Optimizer, you now get only 10 visits a year, so we can sell Navy Fed access for Big Daddy Warbucks at $250 a year and $50 a visit.”

Lots of different ways this could work.