WF Propel vs Chase Sapphire

[staticvoidmain]

Really depends on you, but if you are looking for opinions, here is mine:

I'd get the Propel, because I do not want to think much. I do not want to think about how I could get the annual fee back, or how I would use the points. It is essentially a cashback card, with very straightforward usage.

[Anonymous]

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@Anonymous wrote:

KISS it and be done with it.

If it requires thought then it's not the right scenario for spending.

If you're tied into a particular program significantly more than another then either you diversify or move completely from one to the other.  UR are more versatile if you have more than a couple of earners under the same umbrella to maximize the potential.

WF is limited and can be kind of sticky when it comes to CL's comapred to Chase.  i.e Propel @ $7500 vs Chase aggregate @ ~70K+

WF + another bank could full some gaps for specific use cases outside of the cetagories mentioned in the OP at the top of the list.

USB AR is another option through phone pay but, then you have the bigger AF to offest as well.  If you're earning points then an AF isn't worthwhile unless your spend is significantly going to offset it or you're just earning swipe fees for the bank you're using in the meantime.

If you're not a huge spender than it's worthwhile to get the SUB's on new accounts to bank for future use and then shuffle the card into a no AF card if you want to keep it for something else and then find your next target to accumulate more points.

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It does come down to how much is spent. I hit the $300 SUB on WF in about 10 days. But I also like to KEEP the card if it works well, and not  have to cover the annual fee or SD it.

I also don't want to work too hard to earn rewards, especially if it is too attention stressful. I put a $/hr value on it. I track it, look at what's the best card for a particular purchase (only certain ones require thought), look at Amex offers, BoA Cash Rewards deals, etc., once a day or get an alert and go in to activate it. It takes me about 30 min/week to do that. My tracking says I earned $1,169.66 so far in redemptions, offers, deals, etc. this year, which is on track for $1,674 by Dec 31. $1,674 for 30 min/week = 26 hours/yr = $64.38/hr tax free money, which is worth my time. Get below $40/hr, maybe not.

[wasCB14]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@longtimelurker wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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Right, but you have to beat 3% across the board (transfer + 25% bonus) otherwise not worth the extra work.

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Not sure what you mean here.    So I spend $100 with my CFU at Honest John's Plain Old Shoppe, earning 150 URs.   With the Propel, I would get $1 back.    I can transfer them to the CSP where I can use it for $1.87 towards travel, or $2.25 with the CSR, or I can transfer them to United or Hyatt (and with points from elsewhere!) potentially get say 3cpp redemption, meaning 4.5% on the original purchase

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Sorry, I meant cover the AF, not 3%. So the difference in travel between Propel/CSP/R comes down to covering the AF. You can use CFU at Honest John's and convert it to 1.87 or 2.25, or even 4.5%, but the total $$ for the year transferring has to exceed $95 or $150. It can be done, but it is a lot of work.

If I can only transfer 1.5% to 1.87%, like I said, I'd use my DC card instead at Honest John's.

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Q4 Freedom includes Chase Pay, PayPal, and department stores. I rarely use the latter two, but the former works for me.

$1500 in a quarter on a 2% card would give $30.

$1500 in a quarter on a Freedom gives:

- $75 in straight cash back, or

- $112.50 towards travel through Chase (with CSR), or

- YMMV if redeeemed as miles or points

One useful quarter can diminish the effective AF.

I also favor CSR for the travel insurance protections.

[Anonymous]

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@Anonymous wrote:

But I also like to KEEP the card if it works well, and not  have to cover the annual fee or SD it.

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I also don't want to work too hard to earn rewards, especially if it is too attention stressful. I put a $/hr value on it.

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This is what I was getting down to and you put it so eloquently.  I've seen so many people spend hours on this sort of thing in the past and it's overly complicated on the part of the CCC's for a reason to make it not worthwhile to try to figure out he math or how to max things out.

My focus is value in cash since cash always works and sometimes hoarding points doesn't if it doesn't get you where you want to be.  Comparing ACV to each lender product simplifies things a bit but, it works for a standard of measure when figuring out value.

The math gets a bit convoluted when you're factoring in the extra 0.25% or whatever the "perk" is of hoarding cash with a lender to get it.  You have to dig deep or closely track transactions to figure out if the "perk" is applied to the transaction total or the CB portion... 0.25% on the $2 CB isn't worthwhile for seeing who comes out ahead unless you're spending 6 figures it won't make your wallet hurt to miss out on it if it overly complicates things or is a pain to redeem for what you want.

Propel is straight forward and it works.  Chase can be straight forward and it works. 

Amex can be the same as well.  MR's are a bit more to deal with though since the conversion factor is all over the map depending on how you redeem them. SC's are simplest 1cpp, GC's can be as low as 50-60% of1cpp or equiv 1cpp if you pick the right ones, travel can exceed 1cpp..again depends on the property and promos.

While my goal isn't to churn sometimes taking on that new ecosystem for a test drive elicits the axe later on if the value isn't there... I pick cards with waived or $0 AF for the first year and run through them and see how they fare and compare them to others I have/had in the past and go from there.  I play the long game with them and look at their PC options in advance and work out a strategy from there before hitting submit.

I have some semi annual spend that easily knocks out a couple of5KK MSR's for new cards if they're appealing or divide them up into a couple of smaller options from a regional bank if need be as well.  

I tend to also look at the trends of growth and stability for the long term management of them as well.  Top of the list reads like the larger threads around here with Chase /Amex / BOA / Disco  on top for limits.  For rates I keep a couple of CU accounts for backups if I need to extend a balance instead of PIF and those are sub 10% APR's.  

[Anonymous]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

But I also like to KEEP the card if it works well, and not  have to cover the annual fee or SD it.

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I also don't want to work too hard to earn rewards, especially if it is too attention stressful. I put a $/hr value on it.

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This is what I was getting down to and you put it so eloquently.  I've seen so many people spend hours on this sort of thing in the past and it's overly complicated on the part of the CCC's for a reason to make it not worthwhile to try to figure out he math or how to max things out.

My focus is value in cash since cash always works and sometimes hoarding points doesn't if it doesn't get you where you want to be.  Comparing ACV to each lender product simplifies things a bit but, it works for a standard of measure when figuring out value.

The math gets a bit convoluted when you're factoring in the extra 0.25% or whatever the "perk" is of hoarding cash with a lender to get it.  You have to dig deep or closely track transactions to figure out if the "perk" is applied to the transaction total or the CB portion... 0.25% on the $2 CB isn't worthwhile for seeing who comes out ahead unless you're spending 6 figures it won't make your wallet hurt to miss out on it if it overly complicates things or is a pain to redeem for what you want.

Propel is straight forward and it works.  Chase can be straight forward and it works. 

Amex can be the same as well.  MR's are a bit more to deal with though since the conversion factor is all over the map depending on how you redeem them. SC's are simplest 1cpp, GC's can be as low as 50-60% of1cpp or equiv 1cpp if you pick the right ones, travel can exceed 1cpp..again depends on the property and promos.

While my goal isn't to churn sometimes taking on that new ecosystem for a test drive elicits the axe later on if the value isn't there... I pick cards with waived or $0 AF for the first year and run through them and see how they fare and compare them to others I have/had in the past and go from there.  I play the long game with them and look at their PC options in advance and work out a strategy from there before hitting submit.

I have some semi annual spend that easily knocks out a couple of5KK MSR's for new cards if they're appealing or divide them up into a couple of smaller options from a regional bank if need be as well.  

I tend to also look at the trends of growth and stability for the long term management of them as well.  Top of the list reads like the larger threads around here with Chase /Amex / BOA / Disco  on top for limits.  For rates I keep a couple of CU accounts for backups if I need to extend a balance instead of PIF and those are sub 10% APR's.  

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There will always be people totally into it, just like we've seen people with extreme couponing, storing months of food to save a few bucks, until something happens to the goods. You said it when you inferred that point storage could bite you some day. Just like food storage can.

[Aim_High]

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@Anonymous wrote:

I keep getting an offer that I'm pre-approved for the Chase Sapphire Preferred. I considered applying. But I have a Wells Fargo Propel that has done well for me. I'm looking at these cards strictly as travel rewards cards and compared them.

You'll need to spend $3,333/year in travel using Reserve to cover the cost of the $150 in net annual fee

There are other intangibles with WF vs Chase that would weigh in which is the better card, but strictly from $$ ...

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Your big problem with resolving this is you are thinking like a "cash back" consumer and trying to compare premium travel cards with lower-tier travel cards which offer fewer intrinsic benefits.  Premium travel cards require a different mindset and only make sense to a consumer who can utilize the benefits they offer.  If you don't see the benefits in CSR or USB AR or AMEX PLAT vs CSP or WFP, then they are probably not the proper card for you.  But that doesn't mean that other consumers are not getting more bang for their buck with them than you ever will with a Propel card or even a CSP.

If you ignore everything else in the equation, yes, you might get more "cash back" from a no AF WF Propel.  Everybody is hung up on discussing UR values or cash values of the different cards, but that is too narrow of a focus.  I'm going to just totally ignore the cash-back arguments and look at other things first.

I carry the CSR and think it's a great card.  But it's not for everybody.  Here are some other intrinsic factors you failed to quantify in your calculations. 

* Yes, CSR charges $450 and you get $300 refunded on travel charges.  But it's not even a $150 AF card.  It's much less if you use it.

* You also get $100 refunded for TSA Global Entry once every 4 years.  If you travel internationally, this is worth $25 a year average.

* You get the equivalent of basic AAA roadside assistance, which in my state costs about $50 annually.  (This plan pays the first $50 of any roadside assistance call, up to 4x per year.  Some other plans just arrange services but won't pay anything. That includes the Propel.)

    .... So $450 - $300 - $25 - $50 = new estimated AF of $75. 

   But let's keep going...  

The CSR is a Visa Infinite, a step above Visa Signature and in a competely different league when it comes to the extensive travel protections it offers from lower-priced travel cards.   These benefits often can't easily be quantified and may depend on your usage of the card and lifestyle, but in some cases they may pay for the remainder of the AF many times over.  And this is even before you add in the nickel and dime calculations everyone was doing on the value of percentages back and points value.

* You get PRIMARY rental car damage coverage included in your AF.  Most cards, if they cover rentals at all, only give secondary coverage.  This means if there is an accident, the card will pay AFTER your insurance pays, so you're still out of pocket for the deductible as well as risk having your everyday rates go up for a claim.  CSR pays for the damage without involving your insurance.  This can be huge.  Few cards offer primary coverage and if they do, it's usually for an additional fee per rental.  (Coverage up to $75K.)

* Trip Cancellation insurance:  Up to $10K per person, $20K per trip.

   ....Anyone who has ever booked a cruise or tour package knows this coverage can

cost hundeds of dollars for protection on a single trip, if purchased separately.

When you spend thousands on a reservation, this can be good insurance.

* Delayed Baggage insurance: Begins to pay for delays starting at 6 hours at $100 per day for up to 5 days.

* Trip Delay Insurance: Begins to pay for delays starting at 6 hours and pays up to $500 for unexpected expenses.

* Lost luggage insurance. Up to $3000 per passenger.

* Emergency Evacuation and transportation. Pays up to $100,000 if a covered passenger becomes ill or injured. 

* Accidental Death and Injury insurance: Pays up to $1 Million for a covered loss.

* Airport lounge access at over 1,000 Priority Pass lounges worldwide. 

(equivalent 'prestige' level membership costs $429 as stand-alone membership.)

There are many lower priced travel cards out there with AF's under $100 (or free) that don't offer the benefits of the higher priced cards.  They have their niche, but are probably best suited for the cash-oriented consumer who travels less frequently but still wants a "travel" related card. For the moderate to heavy traveler, the higher priced AF cards can be more than worth their AF in value.  But to truly evaluate these cards, you need to consider *ALL* the features and benefits beyond a simple "cash-back" mentality and decide what level of card best suits your travel needs and lifestyle. 

[wasCB14]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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It does come down to how much is spent. I hit the $300 SUB on WF in about 10 days. But I also like to KEEP the card if it works well, and not  have to cover the annual fee or SD it.

I also don't want to work too hard to earn rewards, especially if it is too attention stressful. I put a $/hr value on it. I track it, look at what's the best card for a particular purchase (only certain ones require thought), look at Amex offers, BoA Cash Rewards deals, etc., once a day or get an alert and go in to activate it. It takes me about 30 min/week to do that. My tracking says I earned $1,169.66 so far in redemptions, offers, deals, etc. this year, which is on track for $1,674 by Dec 31. $1,674 for 30 min/week = 26 hours/yr = $64.38/hr tax free money, which is worth my time. Get below $40/hr, maybe not.

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Very high scores and high CLs generally suggest the habit of saving money over time, yet you compare CSR/CSP to a 2% card.

Have you looked at the BofA Preferred Rewards program? If you have $100k+ in a combination of taxable savings, checking, retirement, and taxable investments...and are willing to use Merrill Edge...there are some 2.62% (or it may be 2.625%) cash and travel credit options.

I've considered going that route myself if my travel slows down, though miles still make sense for me.

[Anonymous]

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@Aim_High wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

I keep getting an offer that I'm pre-approved for the Chase Sapphire Preferred. I considered applying. But I have a Wells Fargo Propel that has done well for me. I'm looking at these cards strictly as travel rewards cards and compared them.

You'll need to spend $3,333/year in travel using Reserve to cover the cost of the $150 in net annual fee

There are other intangibles with WF vs Chase that would weigh in which is the better card, but strictly from $$ ...

---

Your big problem with resolving this is you are thinking like a "cash back" consumer and trying to compare premium travel cards with lower-tier travel cards which offer fewer intrinsic benefits.  Premium travel cards require a different mindset and only make sense to a consumer who can utilize the benefits they offer.  If you don't see the benefits in CSR or USB AR or AMEX PLAT vs CSP or WFP, then they are probably not the proper card for you.  But that doesn't mean that other consumers are not getting more bang for their buck with them than you ever will with a Propel card or even a CSP.

If you ignore everything else in the equation, yes, you might get more "cash back" from a no AF WF Propel.  Everybody is hung up on discussing UR values or cash values of the different cards, but that is too narrow of a focus.  I'm going to just totally ignore the cash-back arguments and look at other things first.

I carry the CSR and think it's a great card.  But it's not for everybody.  Here are some other intrinsic factors you failed to quantify in your calculations. 

* Yes, CSR charges $450 and you get $300 refunded on travel charges.  But it's not even a $150 AF card.  It's much less if you use it.

* You also get $100 refunded for TSA Global Entry once every 4 years.  If you travel internationally, this is worth $25 a year average.

* You get the equivalent of basic AAA roadside assistance, which in my state costs about $50 annually.  (This plan pays the first $50 of any roadside assistance call, up to 4x per year.  Some other plans just arrange services but won't pay anything. That includes the Propel.)

    .... So $450 - $300 - $25 - $50 = new estimated AF of $75. 

   But let's keep going...  

The CSR is a Visa Infinite, a step above Visa Signature and in a competely different league when it comes to the extensive travel protections it offers from lower-priced travel cards.   These benefits often can't easily be quantified and may depend on your usage of the card and lifestyle, but in some cases they may pay for the remainder of the AF many times over.  And this is even before you add in the nickel and dime calculations everyone was doing on the value of percentages back and points value.

* You get PRIMARY rental car damage coverage included in your AF.  Most cards, if they cover rentals at all, only give secondary coverage.  This means if there is an accident, the card will pay AFTER your insurance pays, so you're still out of pocket for the deductible as well as risk having your everyday rates go up for a claim.  CSR pays for the damage without involving your insurance.  This can be huge.  Few cards offer primary coverage and if they do, it's usually for an additional fee per rental.  (Coverage up to $75K.)

* Trip Cancellation insurance:  Up to $10K per person, $20K per trip.

   ....Anyone who has ever booked a cruise or tour package knows this coverage can

cost hundeds of dollars for protection on a single trip, if purchased separately.

When you spend thousands on a reservation, this can be good insurance.

* Delayed Baggage insurance: Begins to pay for delays starting at 6 hours at $100 per day for up to 5 days.

* Trip Delay Insurance: Begins to pay for delays starting at 6 hours and pays up to $500 for unexpected expenses.

* Lost luggage insurance. Up to $3000 per passenger.

* Emergency Evacuation and transportation. Pays up to $100,000 if a covered passenger becomes ill or injured. 

* Accidental Death and Injury insurance: Pays up to $1 Million for a covered loss.

* Airport lounge access at over 1,000 Priority Pass lounges worldwide. 

(equivalent 'prestige' level membership costs $429 as stand-alone membership.)

There are many lower priced travel cards out there with AF's under $100 (or free) that don't offer the benefits of the higher priced cards.  They have their niche, but are probably best suited for the cash-oriented consumer who travels less frequently but still wants a "travel" related card. For the moderate to heavy traveler, the higher priced AF cards can be more than worth their AF in value.  But to truly evaluate these cards, you need to consider *ALL* the features and benefits beyond a simple "cash-back" mentality and decide what level of card best suits your travel needs and lifestyle. 

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I've already addressed the cash back only benefit in my last paragraph of my post. As for the other benefits, like rental car insurance, travel insurance etc., Propel has them, but yes, they may not be as good, or they are close.not sure, and I don't really want to research it. In the last 18 years since I've been into taking advantage of all benefits, only once have I used them. It was an extended warranty on a GPS I purchased that bit the dust after 10 months. Maybe someday I'll use more. But the post really was addressing cash back value. And there are other intrinsic value, such as loving the card design that also counts for something for many people.

[Anonymous]

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@wasCB14 wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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It does come down to how much is spent. I hit the $300 SUB on WF in about 10 days. But I also like to KEEP the card if it works well, and not  have to cover the annual fee or SD it.

I also don't want to work too hard to earn rewards, especially if it is too attention stressful. I put a $/hr value on it. I track it, look at what's the best card for a particular purchase (only certain ones require thought), look at Amex offers, BoA Cash Rewards deals, etc., once a day or get an alert and go in to activate it. It takes me about 30 min/week to do that. My tracking says I earned $1,169.66 so far in redemptions, offers, deals, etc. this year, which is on track for $1,674 by Dec 31. $1,674 for 30 min/week = 26 hours/yr = $64.38/hr tax free money, which is worth my time. Get below $40/hr, maybe not.

---

Very high scores and high CLs generally suggest the habit of saving money over time, yet you compare CSR/CSP to a 2% card.

Have you looked at the BofA Preferred Rewards program? If you have $100k+ in a combination of taxable savings, checking, retirement, and taxable investments...and are willing to use Merrill Edge...there are some 2.62% (or it may be 2.625%) cash and travel credit options.

I've considered going that route myself if my travel slows down, though miles still make sense for me.

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Yes, I've seen what BoA offers if you have invest with them. But you have to pay attention to management fees on their products. Sometimes higher management fees on investment products pay for additional benefits. 

[Aim_High]

@Anonymous wrote: I've already addressed the cash back only benefit in my last paragraph of my post.

(There are other intangibles with WF vs Chase that would weigh in which is the better card, but strictly from $$, unless you spend over $3,333/year in travel (using the Reserve card), Propel beats out Sapphire Reserve and beats out Sapphire Preferred at any spend level.)

As for the other benefits, like rental car insurance, travel insurance etc., Propel has them, but yes, they may not be as good, or they are close.not sure, and I don't really want to research it. In the last 18 years since I've been into taking advantage of all benefits, only once have I used them. It was an extended warranty on a GPS I purchased that bit the dust after 10 months. Maybe someday I'll use more.

.... But the post really was addressing cash back value."

Few true "cash back" cards charge an AF, with perhaps the exception of the Alliant Credit Union 2.5% CB Signature Visa with $99 AF.  Travel cards that charge an AF can't be fairly compared to no AF "cash back" cards that have no (or few) benefits.  It's apples to oranges.

If you're not willing to take into account the added valuation beyond cash-back, that's fine and you're definitely better off with a basic cash-back only card like Propel.  But cards with an AF and premium benefits are not trying to compete with that market segment on a cash basis. The cash back is a small part of their overall valuation.   They aren't even in the same "race," so comparing them is futile.

For the correct customer, the Propel is superior value. 

For the incorrect customer, the Propel is an inferior value. 

It all depends on how they use the card. 

Trying to compare cards in different market segments is difficult at best. 

It oversimplifies the true nature of the credit card market and creates a distorted perception of reality. 

Some cards are better for some people. 

Stick to cash back cards only if that is all that matters.