At what limit is a card no longer counted towards utilization

[awp317]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@awp317 wrote:

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Im not sure if Im following this correctly. But my CSR with a 78k limit reported a 14,480 balance today and that dropped me 13 points on EX. If I add up my avalible credit its included in that too. 

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Are any of your other cards reporting a positive balance?  (not counting cards with a huge credit limit.)

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Yes 3 others. Bank of america 13k, Amex Platinum charge 17k, lowes 10,800,  Amex platinum revolver 43 dollars.  Now funny enough I had asked a quiestion in a thread on this forum earlier, where my amex balance increased from 200 bucks to about 700 and my score dropped. No further drop when the balance went from 700 to 17k. Hoping by the fact that its now at 0 that I might get back those points I lost. 

[JLK93]

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@awp317 wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@awp317 wrote:

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Im not sure if Im following this correctly. But my CSR with a 78k limit reported a 14,480 balance today and that dropped me 13 points on EX. If I add up my avalible credit its included in that too. 

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Are any of your other cards reporting a positive balance?  (not counting cards with a huge credit limit.)

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Yes 3 others. Bank of america 13k, Amex Platinum charge 17k, lowes 10,800,  Amex platinum revolver 43 dollars.  Now funny enough I had asked a quiestion in a thread on this forum earlier, where my amex balance increased from 200 bucks to about 700 and my score dropped. No further drop when the balance went from 700 to 17k. Hoping by the fact that its now at 0 that I might get back those points I lost. 

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Interesting.

Suppose for a second that balances of 50K cards are included in utilization calculations but the limits are not. I'm not saying that is the case. Just suppose.

A quick and dirty calculation shows that the CSR card reporting would have increased awp317's overall utilization from approximately 7% to approximately 11%. That could have caused the score drop. 

[Anonymous]

That would be pretty rough if the balance on a $50k card was counted into utilization but the limit wasn't.

It reminds me of what happens when you close a credit card that has a balance... the credit limit goes away but the balance remains [calculated into utilization].

[909]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@JLK93 wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

What were the results?  I got lost after the 70th or 80th post. 

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iced let his 3rd revolver report a zero balance on December 19th. That left him with only 2 50K cards reporting balances. 

Just for clarity, his third revolver reported $0 to the three bureaus on Dec 19?  Or he paid it down to $0 on the 19th?  When did the credit bureaus update their databases with the new $0 balance and how do we know?

Do we know what his individual utilization was on this third card prior to the pay-to-zero?  That's relevant because if it went from 55% to 0% (for example) he'd be trading one penalty for another.  I asked about this at the time but didn't get an answer.

Results:

1. In early January his Discover Experian FICO updated. There was no change. 

You mention in bullet #2 below that the Jan 11 EQ update was actually based on Dec 27 data.  Is it possible that the EX update in ealy January was based on Dec data as well?  What date might it have been in Dec?  How do we know that the Dec 19 pay-to-zero was reflected in the database by Dec 27?

2. On January 11th his Citi Equifax FICO updated based on a December 27 pull. There was no change.

3. TU TBD when Barclays next updates.

909 went from 4 out of 7 cards reporting balances to 1 50K card reporting a balance. All scores increased.

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My memory is that whatever information we did get was as a result of a lot of prompting (over several dozen posts back and forth) and "I'm not sure" responses.  Iced is a great guy and well intentioned but the end result after all of that lowered my confidence in the test (as well as tiring me out).  Especially given that this is in fact an easy thing to test with CCT.

*  CCT pull of all three bureaus with scores and CC balances, all on the same day.

*  Change the CC balance

*  CCT pull of all three bureaus with scores and CC balances, all on the same day.

It's precisely because this is something for which it IS so easy to have a certain indisputable test mechanism -- that when we don't have it, I think we don't have anything.

Far better to say, thank so much for your awesome intentions, really appreciate it!  Can we just repeat this test again with a clear instrument?  Should only cost you $2.

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Is this not helpful?

Test results:

Dec 25 CCT FICO 8: EX - 797, TU - 780, EQ - 802

7 revolvers, 4 reporting balances: $10, $14, $23, $1,025. $1,025 is in AMEX with $50K limit

Jan 14 CCT FICO 8: EX - 799, TU - 784, EQ - 811

Only revolver reporting a balance (EX and EQ) is AMEX, with $2,985 balance (TU also shows $23 and $14 balances)

EX and EQ scores went up, overall balance and until went up, 3 small balances went to zero leaving only the Amex with $50K limit.

I'm not sure how helpful this is. Looking forward to hearing thoughts!

[Anonymous]

909,

My question here would be what your utilization percentages (aggregate) were here at the time of the December and January pulls.  Unfortunately there are a couple of variables at play in addition to the $50k credit line.  You have aggregate utilization, which if it crossed a threshold could result in a score change but you also have the number of cards reporting balances changing from 4 of 7 to 1 of 7 which on some profiles would result in a score increase.

I would venture to guess that your $50k limit IS being counted into utilization though in this illustration, as if it wasn't I would think you would have seen a score drop on EX and EQ since then there would have been no cards with reported balances (being factored in).  This is a fairly good indicator, just not the cleanest possible datapoint due to additional variables.

To get the cleanest result here, I believe this is what you'd want to do... and CGID can correct me or chime in if there's an easier way:

Allow 2 of your 7 cards to report small balances... one being your Amex $50k limit card and the other being any other card (assuming it's a revolver and not an AU account).

Pull your scores.

Then take the non-Amex card with the small balance down to zero, thus making the Amex $50k credit line the only card that's reporting a small balance.

Pull your scores again.

If you see a ~14-22 point drop across all 3B in the second set of scores, you know that the $50k Amex card is not being factored into overall utilization.

If you do not see any change (or just a natural point or two fluctuation in either direction) it means that the Amex card IS being factored into utilization.

[909]

Total CL is $107,250 so total util in the above test was about 1% and 3%.

I don't have any AU accounts.

[iced]

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@Anonymous wrote:

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@JLK93 wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

What were the results?  I got lost after the 70th or 80th post. 

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iced let his 3rd revolver report a zero balance on December 19th. That left him with only 2 50K cards reporting balances. 

Just for clarity, his third revolver reported $0 to the three bureaus on Dec 19?  Or he paid it down to $0 on the 19th?  When did the credit bureaus update their databases with the new $0 balance and how do we know?

Do we know what his individual utilization was on this third card prior to the pay-to-zero?  That's relevant because if it went from 55% to 0% (for example) he'd be trading one penalty for another.  I asked about this at the time but didn't get an answer.

Results:

1. In early January his Discover Experian FICO updated. There was no change. 

You mention in bullet #2 below that the Jan 11 EQ update was actually based on Dec 27 data.  Is it possible that the EX update in ealy January was based on Dec data as well?  What date might it have been in Dec?  How do we know that the Dec 19 pay-to-zero was reflected in the database by Dec 27?

2. On January 11th his Citi Equifax FICO updated based on a December 27 pull. There was no change.

3. TU TBD when Barclays next updates.

909 went from 4 out of 7 cards reporting balances to 1 50K card reporting a balance. All scores increased.

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My memory is that whatever information we did get was as a result of a lot of prompting (over several dozen posts back and forth) and "I'm not sure" responses.  Iced is a great guy and well intentioned but the end result after all of that lowered my confidence in the test (as well as tiring me out).  Especially given that this is in fact an easy thing to test with CCT.

*  CCT pull of all three bureaus with scores and CC balances, all on the same day.

*  Change the CC balance

*  CCT pull of all three bureaus with scores and CC balances, all on the same day.

It's precisely because this is something for which it IS so easy to have a certain indisputable test mechanism -- that when we don't have it, I think we don't have anything.

Far better to say, thank so much for your awesome intentions, really appreciate it!  Can we just repeat this test again with a clear instrument?  Should only cost you $2.

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Seems I'm involved in a thread I didn't even read until this morning!

My apologies for inconveniencing, but bear in mind you were asking people to control balances, monitor statement dates carefully, sign up for a service, rememeber to call in and cancel them to avoid paying fees, wait a period of time, then sign up for the service again and call in again. I agreed to do it, but give a little latitude. While you may see it as easy, others (in this case, me) see this as a time sink and an inconvenience as I had to share data with yet another website (CCT). I'm also not the sort of person who keeps close tabs on this level of detail because it's not important to me. To be honest, I didn't even know the statement date on my card until this test - I get a biill that says "pay by the 15th" and I pay it off, days and often weeks before the due date. Due dates aren't statement dates, as you know.

As for your questions of utilization, it slipped through the cracks of my email. Now that you brought it back to my attention...

November 17 statement: $524 balance ($12,400 limit) - 4.2% utilization

December 19 statement: $0 ($12,400 limit) - 0% utilization

Since CCT seems to be the litmus test, and you now have my sampling from January where the reporting balance on the sub $50k card was $0. I'm happy to let that card stay at $0 in February if you think it adds some value, or I can throw a small balance (like $20) on it so it reports a balance in February. That particular card I rarely use so it's not an inconvenience to me either way.

[Anonymous]

Hello Iced!  I would be so intensely grateful if you would do exactly what you just suggested.  Namely to place a small balance on the third card, let it report, then do a CCT pull.  That way we will have:

A CCT pull with your two 50k limit cards reporting positive and all other cards reporting $0

A CCT pull with the same data except one sub-29k card reporting $20

with the two pulls separated by a very short time.

The overwhelming advnatage of the CCT pull (as a testing device) is that it gives all three scores using the same model at the same instant and it accompanies them with a 3B report documenting what the balances were.  Furthermore it is a testing instrument that can be duplicated by anyone else interested in replicating or disconfirming your results.

I realize that you were hoping to save yourself time by not doing the CCT pull, but in fact it appears that there have been 120 messages on that thread (!!!) since you decided to do this back in November.  That's a lot of work on your part!  The two CCT pull approach is much simpler and involves much less time on your part.  And it gives public, clear, indisputable results (rather than a lot of stuff based on memories and beliefs and guesswork).

I"d be so thankful if you would do this.  Feel free to send BBS private messages if you want so guidance on this.  I know he's been following your situation closely and he's the King of the $1 CCT Pull. 

[iced]

I just pulled a CCT report again, this time with a small balance reporting on the smaller limit card.

To recap, the results in December ($0 reporting on small limit card):

Experian:

Score: 756

Util: 1%

Accounts Ever Late: 5

Time Since Negative: 4.3 years

Average Account Age: 7.2 years

Negative Factors: Serious Delinquincy, Few Current Accounts

TransUnion:

Score: 757

Util: 1%

Accounts Ever Late: 5

Time Since Negative: 4.1 years

Average Account Age: 7.3 years

Negative Factors: Serious Delinquincy, Bad Payment History

Equifax:

Score: 745

Util: 1%

Accounts Ever Late: 4

Time Since Negative: 4.1 years

Average Account Age: 7.2 years

Negative Factors: Serious Delinquincy, Short Revolving History

Report pulled today (~$80 reporting on card with smaller limit):

Experian:

Score: 755 (Decreased by 1 point)

Util: 3%

Accounts Ever Late: 5

Time Since Negative: 4.5 years

Average Account Age: 7.3 years

Negative Factors: Serious Delinquincy, Few Current Accounts (No change)

TransUnion:

Score: 757 (No change)

Util: 3%

Accounts Ever Late: 5

Time Since Negative: 4.3 years

Average Account Age: 7.5 years

Negative Factors: Serious Delinquincy, Bad Payment History (No change)

Equifax:

Score: 745 (No change)

Util: 3%

Accounts Ever Late: 4

Time Since Negative: 4.3 years

Average Account Age: 7.3 years

Negative Factors: Serious Delinquincy, Short Revolving History (No change)

Aside from accounts aging a bit and a 1 point drop on EX, nothing changed.