@HeavenOhio wrote:I suppose the store card effect can depend on one's profile. We can run into situations where we might say, "mine works this way, but yours might not." Likewise, someone might be OK letting multiple cards report a balance. I get the two-card ding on Equifax, although it's still my best score despite the fact that it isn't fully optimized. So I'm letting two cards report.
Given that it affects at least some of us, when someone asks about optimizing, suggesting that it's preferable to let a major card be the one to report is certainly appropriate. It's best to be safe.
This is true, but presumably if store cards are treated differently than bankcards it would apply to all profiles.
To be fair, that does occur with reason codes which exist on some scorecards but not others (new accounts penalty, near as I can tell no such thing existed in the ugliest bucket I was in but it's there on my prettier bucket which may be sorted into the box of 8 rather than 4 with only a 30 and 60D lates on it now) but when we're talking basic intrinsic facts like what's included in the definition of a revolver or installment loan, should exist across all scores in a given model across all 3 bureaus.
There may be a difference in FICO 9 much as there was in FICO NextGen: I got a confirmation during my all zeros testing via TU FICO 9 reason codes that there's a seperate one for both credit card and revolver... and presumably credit cards count for both (I'll test this sometime if someone doesn't beat me to it) whereas my PLOC counted as a revolver but not a credit card. Unfortunately my file was a little busy and I didn't get enough pulls in before my tax lien disappeared disturbing the data set with the change in scorecards.
@Revelate wrote:Speculation without data is getting a little fustruating here at times
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HeavenOhio provided data in his first post in this thread, so that's not speculation.
I wasn't referring to his statement, but I apologize for overstating the case.
Still needs verification from others and preferably reason code demonstration as well. I'm not certain if something else isn't the case there on EX as I recently saw that with my own file and I have no store cards, but it wasn't a well controlled datapoint so I wasn't offering it... I hold data to a pretty high standard, and everything else has been borne out on reason codes, to find a difference between retail and bankcards needs similar in my opinion.
@Anonymous wrote:
I understand that, it just seemed to me like it was a pretty solid data point. Someone does X and loses 4 points, then undoes X and gains back the 4 points. It would take quite a coincidence for X to not be the catalyst for the point drop/gain.
I think you value reason codes more than I do. Since I've seen on multiple occasions a reason code under factors helping my score which directly contradicts one under factors hurting my score, I tend to not regard reason codes very highly.
The factors helping your score are not reason codes and should be ignored. Reason codes are never ever positive and they are as good as it gets for analysis of FICO, and Vantage incidently if you can find them. We kinda failed on this board if that point isn't clear to everyone who's trying to analyze the algorithm, thought it was understood by all mea culpa.
Some of the intepretation on MF's interface does a disservice to those testing things in the algorithm, people need to be aware of what's gold standard and what's not. To be fair it's not just MF, Equifax and others do it too, but none of the information is reference for the algorithm with the exception of score changes (when controlled, many datapoints aren't on this forum) and reason codes... with a shift in reason codes being the best possible analysis.
We've had lots of reports of oddities on EX when it comes to paying down or paying off cards, I've seen it myself sometimes when testing number of tradelines with balances but simply shrugged... that seems far more likely than a difference in store vs. bankcard in FICO 8 or FICO 04.
@Anonymous wrote:Nope, this is the first time I've ever read that negative reason codes are the only thing that matter and not positive ones. And, as you know, I've read a lot. The only place I've ever looked at reason codes is on CCT, so I know nothing about them with respect to other sources.
Probably because it was known. Check here or any of the other credit sites, it doesn't come up often as it's assumed to be universally understood.
Reason codes are always "reasons your score isn't better" any positive spin put on by MF or Experian when it comes to CCT, or CK, or others, simply is their interpretation of the file, or their comparing your data to other users. It doesn't exist in FICO.
Can you post a sample of the negative reason codes on CCT? I promise you the postive ones aren't valid, and you can Google that here, or CB, the reddit subforum, or probably even CC: it's one of the fundamental things regarding FICO.
This is a little dated, but gives a pretty good breakdown on a lot of the reason codes if not all for some of the models to illustrate the point:
http://www.fico.com/en/wp-content/secure_upload/FICO_Score_Reason_Codes_1424PS.pdf
@Thomas_Thumb wrote:Actually, VantageScore 3.0 provides positive reason codes. It's part of their core principles. Their positive codes start with a "P". Helps differentiate them from Fico - and yes Fico only has a list of codes that relate to adverse action. Thus, no "official" list of positive actors such as a long payment history. Here is a list of VS3 positive codes.
VantageScore 3.0 codesv3
P04: The balances on your accounts are not too high compared to loan limits
P05: There are no or only a few recent delinquencies on your accounts
P06: You have few or no accounts that were opened recently
P07: You have either no or few delinquent or derogatory accounts
P08: One or more of your accounts were paid on time in recent months
P09: None of your accounts have a severe delinquency or a derogatory status
P10: One or more of your accounts have been paid on time
P11: You have few or no accounts with delinquent or derogatory balances
P12: The date that you opened your oldest account is not too recent
P13: Your most recently opened account is not too new
P14: Your credit file contains enough information about your use of credit
P15: None of your accounts have a recent delinquency or a derogatory status
P16: The total of all balances on your open accounts is not too high
P17: Balances on prior delinquent accounts not too high compared to loan amts
P18: Total of balances on accts never late not too high compared to loan amts
P21: No open accounts in your credit file
P22: No recently reported account information
P23: Lack of sufficient relevant account information
P29: Few or none of your open bankcard or revolving accounts has a balance
P30: One or more of your bankcard or revolving accounts has a high limit
P31: Few or none of your bankcard or revolving accounts was opened recently
P32: Balances on bankcard or revolving accts not too high compared to limits
P33: No severe delinquency/derogatory status on bankcard or revolving accts
P34: Total of all balances on bankcard or revolving accounts is not too high
P35: Your highest bankcard or revolving account balance is not too high
P36: Largest credit limit on open bankcard or revolving accts is not too low
P39: Available credit on open bankcard or revolving accounts is not too low
P40: Date your oldest bankcard or revolving account opened is not too recent
P42: Date your newest bankcard or revolving account opened is not too recent
P43: Credit file has enough history on your use of bankcard/revolving accts
P44: Few or no bankcard or revolving accts with delinquent/derogatory status
P45: Few or no bankcard/revolving accts with delinquent/derogatory balances
P47: No open bankcard or revolving accounts in your credit file
P48: No bankcard or revolving recently reported account information
P49: Lack of sufficient relevant bankcard or revolving account information
P50: No open retail revolving accounts in your credit file
P52: No open home equity loans in your credit file
P53: No real estate accounts with severe delinquency or derogatory status
P54: Amount of balance paid down on open real estate accounts is not too low
P55: Open real estate account balances not too high compared to loan amounts
P57: Few or no real estate accts with delinquent or derogatory payment status
P58: The total of all balances on open real estate accounts is not too high
P61: No open real estate accounts in your credit file
P62: No recently reported real estate account information
P63: Lack of sufficient relevant real estate account information
P64: No open first mortgage accounts in your credit file
P65: Lack of sufficient relevant first mortgage account information
P66: Balances on open auto accounts are not too high compared to loan amounts
P68: No open auto accounts in your credit file
P69: Lack of sufficient relevant auto account information
P70: No open personal installment loans in your credit file
P71: One or more of your installment accounts has been paid on time
P72: Few or no installment accts with delinquent or derogatory payment status
P73: No installment accounts with a severe delinquency or derogatory status
P74: Amount of balance paid down on open installment accounts is not too low
P75: Your most recently opened installment account is not too new
P76: Your credit file has enough history on your use of installment loans
P77: Newest delinquent/derogatory status on installment accts not too recent
P78: Installment account balances not too high compared to loan amounts
P79: You have few or no recent delinquencies on your installment accounts
P81: No open installment accounts in your credit file
P83: Lack of sufficient relevant installment account information
P85: You have few or no inquiries on your credit report
P86: You have few or no derogatory public records on your credit report
P87: You have few or no unsatisfied public records on your credit report
P88: You have no recent derogatory public records on your credit report
P90: You have one or more discharged bankruptcies
P92: No open student loan accounts in your credit file
P93: No student loan accounts with a severe delinquency or derogatory status
P94: Amount of balance paid down on open student loan accounts is not too low
P95: You have few or no unpaid collection agency accounts
P96: You have few or no collection agency account balances
P98: There is no bankruptcy on your credit report
Thanks senor for correcting me on VS3; with your godlike file have those ever come up on your VS3 pulls? Not sure if you have a place which gives Vantage reason codes, I get some from Alliant but to date even with a laudable VS 3 (EX 803) it's still 4 negative reason codes. Good find, much appreciated!