@Anonymous wrote:Such as ?
Any other scoring resources you might suggest?
The link you provided is the best source I've found on this forum. While there's no way to prove or disprove the accuracy of the information provided, the general guidelines are a good place to start. However, it does take a long time to wade through the entire thread.
TLDR for the OP:
Look at the first graphic in Post #1. It's titled "Figure 4: Why Build Segmented Scorecards. Predictors And Their Patterns Can Vary Across Subpopulations".
@Anonymous
@NoHardLimits @Snook_on_the_Line
wanted to update 1 small mistake and also at the end of this post are the 9/10/10T results thus far ,
When I said that exp and transunion both gained points, I was looking at both FICO and vantage score when going over the numbers and confused them. In reality TU gained points while exp lost them, despite having the same exact profile. More info below
for fico
tu8- gained 13 points from 1st account and 8 from the 2nd account (so far the only fico 8 score to gain any points)
exp8- only 1 account has hit thus far but it lost 18 points, waiting to see what happens when second account hits
equifax 8- only 1 acct hit so far but lost 21 points (this is my CRA with no missed payments but very young age)
experian and transunion are the bureaus with the missed payment, and they are exactly identical in every way.
when I reported that experian gained 13 points I mixed up the fico and vantage numbers. (It was vantage experian that gained points I mistakenly said fico experian earlier, also should mention, I don't care about VS since it's useless, I really just watch it out of curiosity
Equifax is my profile with no missed payments, but 7 years less age, and equifax8 from fico also lost points, 21 to be exact. so as of right now I'm waiting for the following results
the second account still needs to hit equifax and experian. But both accounts have posted on TU.
Now onto the 9/10/10T scores
Fico 9 equifax- no change
fico 9 TU lost 6 points after addition of both accounts
fico 9 exp lost 1 point after addition of 1st account only
fico 10 equ- no change after addition of 1st account
fico 10 Tu- lost 2 points after addition of both accounts
fico 10 exp -lost 7 points after addition of 1st account only
10T eq- lost 13 after addition of 1st account only
10T Tu- gained 2 points after addition of both accounts
10T exp- lost 7 points after addition of 1st account only
So it looks like TU8 and EQ8 are behaving as expected with the associated scorecards:
TU8 was dirty/thin/mature/no new revolver which changed to dirty/thick/young/new revolver.
EQ8 was clean/thin/young/no new revolver which changed to clean/thick/young/new revolver.
TU's dirty scorecard was improved by the thickened status and better mix.
EQ's clean scorecard was damaged by the new revolver status.
Both TU and EQ benefitted from lower % of accounts with balances and slightly lower util.
The puzzling datapoints are from EX. If the tradelines are exactly the same between TU and EX, one would expect the scoring impact to at least move in the same general direction. Maybe not exactly point for point, given the tweaking each bureau requested for their proprietary algorithm, but it's not expected that they would move in opposite directions by significant margins.
Can you elaborate on the tradelines showing up on each bureau. I think EQ only had 1 open credit card and 1 closed car loan, correct? How about TU and EX? What tradeline had the missed payment? What is the age of the missed payment? Is that account open or closed? What other open or closed accounts appear on each of the 3 bureaus?
Edit to add: I don't have enough experience with FICOs 9, 10, or 10T to offer any credible opinions.
happy to elaborate if it will help us figure this out. (Also the 2nd account hit experian today, more info on this below)
as you mentioned, I am not at all concerned/surprised at equifax's results, this profile is vastly different from the other 2, and therefore the results are expected to be very different. But, when 2 CRA's have the exact same data and move 2 in completely different directions by as much as 40-50 points. That's what I'm curious about, as I was fully expected experian to follow in TU footsteps and increase in score. Maybe not the exact same number, but at least something.
so yes, Experian and trans union were line for line exactly the same. The data is below.
- they both contain a closed car loan, this is the trade line with the late payment, 30 day. As of today the late payment is 4 years and 7 months old. The car loan was opened august of 2017, and successfully paid off and closed in 2021. Making this account 7 years 1 month old for both bureaus. (I could be wrong, but I always thought profiles were considered clean once the 30 day late hit 2 years of age, unless you have many missed payments, 60 day lates are debated as to whether those profiles turn clean after 2 years, and 90 day lates are 100% dirty for the full 7 years, so I am unsure if my experian and TU profiles are considered clean or not, you seem to think they would still be classified as dirty, unsure how relevant this is to my current situation)
- the second most recent account would be my credit one card, opened 09/2023. No missed payments. This trade line is still open
That brings us to very recently,
Trans
when the first account (chase) hit TU I gained 13 points, then gained an additional 8 when the second new acct hit (cap one)
experian
when the first new account hit, I lost 18 points, when the 2nd new account hit, I did not lose or gain any points.
@Cblough93 wrote:happy to elaborate if it will help us figure this out. (Also the 2nd account hit experian today, more info on this below)
as you mentioned, I am not at all concerned/surprised at equifax's results, this profile is vastly different from the other 2, and therefore the results are expected to be very different. But, when 2 CRA's have the exact same data and move 2 in completely different directions by as much as 40-50 points. That's what I'm curious about, as I was fully expected experian to follow in TU footsteps and increase in score. Maybe not the exact same number, but at least something.
so yes, Experian and trans union were line for line exactly the same. The data is below.
- they both contain a closed car loan, this is the trade line with the late payment, 30 day. As of today the late payment is 4 years and 7 months old. The car loan was opened august of 2017, and successfully paid off and closed in 2021. Making this account 7 years 1 month old for both bureaus. (I could be wrong, but I always thought profiles were considered clean once the 30 day late hit 2 years of age, unless you have many missed payments, 60 day lates are debated as to whether those profiles turn clean after 2 years, and 90 day lates are 100% dirty for the full 7 years, so I am unsure if my experian and TU profiles are considered clean or not, you seem to think they would still be classified as dirty, unsure how relevant this is to my current situation)
- the second most recent account would be my credit one card, opened 09/2023. No missed payments. This trade line is still open
That brings us to very recently,
Trans
when the first account (chase) hit TU I gained 13 points, then gained an additional 8 when the second new acct hit (cap one)
experian
when the first new account hit, I lost 18 points, when the 2nd new account hit, I did not lose or gain any points.
I just re-read the part of the link cited a few posts above. I realize that I did not have a good grasp of the "dirty" scorecards. For your TU and EX, the scorecard is likely: dirty/no public record/mature delinquincy rather than the scorecards I mentioned before.
I think you will need to read the exact details of the account that had the late payment. You said that you have a 30 day late from 4 years and 7 months ago, and that debt was fully paid off in 2021. First, are you certain that EX and TU account details confirm these dates? Do the details from AnnualCreditReport agree with myFICO? If they truly are exactly the same info, then I am out of ideas. The only thing left would be that the algorithms treat the "recency of delinquency" differently as you already suspect. That is, the scorecard is "dirty" in both cases but maybe the delinquency is "mature" on one but "recent" on the other one. That's all I've got left.
That was my thinking as well, the way I see it there are only 2 possibilities.
1) perhaps one CRA designates my profile as a clean profile and one sees it as dirty. The way I understand it, positive things will have a greater affect on dirty profiles while negative things will have a greater affect on clean profiles.
So, perhaps that could be the reason. The dirty profile got a substantial increase due to positive changes such as accounts with balances, credit mix, etc. while the clean profile got a loss due to losing average age and age of youngest account?
2) experian takes "average age of accounts and age of youngest account" wayyy more seriously than TU and TU takes "credit mix, and Accts with balances" way more seriously than experian. Which would essentially mean that these 2 bureaus weight the different sections vastly differently, despite the same profile. After all, each bureau does have its own unique structure and weighs things differently. (For example, I have heard that experian doesn't really care about AZEO at all, while the other 2 bureaus will give you a points boost)
and as a result I got a harsh penalty on experian while TU gave me points for the positive things.
@Cblough93 wrote:
That was my thinking as well, the way I see it there are only 2 possibilities.
1) perhaps one CRA designates my profile as a clean profile and one sees it as dirty. The way I understand it, positive things will have a greater affect on dirty profiles while negative things will have a greater affect on clean profiles.
So, perhaps that could be the reason. The dirty profile got a substantial increase due to positive changes such as accounts with balances, credit mix, etc. while the clean profile got a loss due to losing average age and age of youngest account?
2) experian takes "average age of accounts and age of youngest account" wayyy more seriously than TU and TU takes "credit mix, and Accts with balances" way more seriously than experian. Which would essentially mean that these 2 bureaus weight the different sections vastly differently, despite the same profile. After all, each bureau does have its own unique structure and weighs things differently. (For example, I have heard that experian doesn't really care about AZEO at all, while the other 2 bureaus will give you a points boost)
and as a result I got a harsh penalty on experian while TU gave me points for the positive things.
I'm certain that the 3 bureaus have their own specific spin on their FICO algorithms. For my profile, EX is always more stable than TU or EQ.
Equifax updated with second account today and FICO 8 gained 8 points. Making a net loss of 13 points for 2 new accounts for Equifax (33 if you count the point loss from the hard inquiry as well).
Breakdown is as follows:
Equifax (young and clean acct)
-20 point loss for hard pull
-Lost 21 for first account because it put me back into "new revolver in the past 12 months" territory, and reset youngest acct from 14 months to 1 month
-then gained 8 points back when second account hit.
TU:
On TransUnion I gained 13 points from first account, and another 8 from second. so from what I've gathered going from 1/1 accounts with balances to 1/2 was worth about 13 points and 1/2 to 1/3 was worth another 8 points. (Util ratio change went from 4% to 1% not significant enough to make a real difference in score)
experian:
however these results were not duplicated with experian, experian lost like 17 points from the first account, and I'm anticipating a small rise in points when the 2nd account hits. Seeing what happens to experian when the 2nd account hits is the last piece to my new account puzzle.
these results are all fico 8 results, on an earlier comment on this thread I posted the results from fico 9/10/10T.
that about wraps up this thread guys. Thanks for coming!
Well it official,
experian does not care about AZEO/accts with balances.
Just went from 1/2 to 1/3 cards with balances and saw no score movement.
it also didn't seem to care when I went from 1/1 to 1/2 accts with balances either